# 32 bit input
**URL:** https://forum.psaudio.com/t/32-bit-input/4120
**Category:** DACs
**Created:** [July 11, 2017, 4:53am UTC](https://forum.psaudio.com/t/32-bit-input/4120 "2017-07-11T04:53:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 8
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Elk](https://forum.psaudio.com/u/Elk)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://forum.psaudio.com/t/32-bit-input/4120/21 "2017-07-12T17:49:39Z")
> **Mi2016 said** But Roon can't do this [control DS volume] in tandem with it's automatic volume leveling feature.
Unfortunate.
As a practical matter, it is not worth worrying about as throwing out three or four bits of a 24-bit data stream makes no difference in the real world; we do not have systems which reach beyond -120dB, and many are not this quiet.
But it would be nice to have things theoretically perfect. It would psychologically sound better.
> **Ted Smith said** Now if you naïvely use, say 16 bit signed math to represent the volume for a 16 bit volume control or 24 bit signed math to do a 24 bit volume control you can't represent +1 - i.e. you can't represent no volume change! you'll always change bits even at full volume. These changes can be noticeable with if implemented with bad dither in 16 bits even when you are playing at full volume.
Fascinating, Ted. I did not know this. It makes sense and appears almost obvious once you explain. :)
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### Author:  [@wobblewobble](https://forum.psaudio.com/u/wobblewobble)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://forum.psaudio.com/t/32-bit-input/4120/22 "2017-07-12T17:58:56Z")
> **Elk said** As a practical matter, it is not worth worrying about as throwing out three or four bits of a 24-bit data stream makes no difference in the real world
Absolutely, and I was actually happy to leave it at Ted's post about dynamic range but when you then mentioned _"Of course, a good volume control is transparent; it does not throw away bits"_ it was incorrect in this context of software auto digital volume control.
It was great to have Ted clear up the facts too and was great learning for all of us, for sure. It’s always nice to have the facts from the Guru rather than us just guessing (myself included).
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### Author:  [@Elk](https://forum.psaudio.com/u/Elk)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://forum.psaudio.com/t/32-bit-input/4120/23 "2017-07-12T18:44:01Z")
Once again, I am not “guessing” when I post. In fact, I try not to post on topics I know nothing about. There are lossless digital volume controls. The DS is one example. The PWD’s is also transparent until a great deal of attenuation is asked for. And they are software based. (Is not all digital ultimately software based?)
More importantly, this forum is not a competition. There is no trophy for posting the last word, and no points awarded for unpleasant responses. Please stop with the ad hominem and otherwise disparaging comments - and _focus on audio._ No one is describing the contents of your posts negatively or attacking you personally. Instead, everyone is taking you seriously, and addressing you respectfully. Please treat everyone similarly.
There are many, many people on this forum from whom you can learn a great deal and who are additionally happy to assist you. Take positive advantage of this resource. Please keep an open mind.
Back on topic: Perhaps someone will be able to provide you with a software player which can perform replay gain/volume normalization and do so via invoking the DS’ volume control. I am surprised Roon can do both, but not at the same time.
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### Author:  [@tedsmith](https://forum.psaudio.com/u/tedsmith)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://forum.psaudio.com/t/32-bit-input/4120/24 "2017-07-12T18:49:05Z")
> **Elk said**
>
> > **Ted Smith said** Now if you naïvely use, say 16 bit signed math to represent the volume for a 16 bit volume control or 24 bit signed math to do a 24 bit volume control you can't represent +1 - i.e. you can't represent no volume change! you'll always change bits even at full volume. These changes can be noticeable with if implemented with bad dither in 16 bits even when you are playing at full volume.
>
> Fascinating, Ted. I did not know this. It makes sense and appears almost obvious once you explain. :)
It used to be a potential problem with DSP chips that only supported, say, 16 bit math or only 24 bit math and/or when you had to worry about every single processor cycle. These days with faster clocks and wider bit widths support in both DSP chips and general purpose processors it shouldn't be much of an issue at all.
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### Author:  [@wobblewobble](https://forum.psaudio.com/u/wobblewobble)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://forum.psaudio.com/t/32-bit-input/4120/25 "2017-07-12T18:54:52Z")
> **Elk said** no points awarded for unpleasant responses. Please stop with the ad hominem and otherwise disparaging comments
Noted Elk and I kindly ask you, the Forum Leader, consider the same.
I hope we can both move past this misunderstanding.
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### Author:  [@Elk](https://forum.psaudio.com/u/Elk)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://forum.psaudio.com/t/32-bit-input/4120/26 "2017-07-12T19:20:39Z")
I’m sorry; you have lost me. I just reviewed this thread. Where were you personally attacked, or your posts characterized as worthless “guessing” or the like?
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### Author:  [@wobblewobble](https://forum.psaudio.com/u/wobblewobble)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://forum.psaudio.com/t/32-bit-input/4120/27 "2017-07-12T20:49:45Z")
Elk, I appreciate that you don’t work for PS Audio but I expect a Forum Leader to show a little more professional conduct or at least courtesy by PM’ing me privately, at least in the first instance, to discuss any issue you may have with me, rather than the way you have done here.
As I mentioned, we would both benefit from following your advice and I hope we can move past this misunderstanding and I do appreciate the work you do around here.
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### Author:  [@Elk](https://forum.psaudio.com/u/Elk)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://forum.psaudio.com/t/32-bit-input/4120/28 "2017-07-13T15:44:57Z")
I admit I am greatly enjoying the public scolding that all such scolding should be private. Delicious irony. 🙂
If you stick around, you see that members here challenge me in whatever way makes sense to them. Many of these are public posts, some are private messages. Whatever works for them is perfectly fine. I make mistakes, misjudge how a comment will be perceived, split apart threads others think should be single, keep single threads others believe should be split, express an opinion which is too strong. It is commitment with being part of a community.
I have cautioned you a number of times in multiple threads that personal attacks, ad hominem comments, cheap personal shots, etc. are unacceptable. Also unacceptable are disparaging dismissals of other’s posts, such as labeling them as “guesses.” It is past time for you to knock it off. All of us can debate and discuss any topic - even vigorously - respectfully.
Please also keep in mind that you are not entitled to responses from someone merely because you asked a question, that your posts my engender responses you feel are irrelevant, that you may receive responses you do not like, your beliefs and prejudices may be challenged, that a thread may gone on longer than you would prefer, etc. It is the nature of public discussion. That is, it is not all about you.
Also, this very loose herd of cats prefers believing there really is no such thing as off-topic. Thus, most threads wander, some in circles. If you are unhappy with how a thread is going, stop reading it and quit posting.
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