Belden ICONOCLAST Interconnects and Speaker Cabling

[rower30]

Now we try the CLX with the Model 31’s. WOW is all I can say. There is no lack of bass power with them playing Tracy Chapman (records still sound REALLY good). The upper mid bass POP is softer for sure as the subs don’t go up that high, and the CLX are, of course, known to be softer in the mid bass area.

But, the super tight clean nature of the REL’s is impressive as they are basically more the BASS with the CLX and just a supporting role with the CWT’s. They have to work a lot harder to impress you, and they do. How they stay so hidden playing so much more information is interesting. The CLX cross-over is at 40Hz and 13 level. The CWT’s are crossed over at 35 Hz and 10 Level.

The differences between the CWT and CLX is closer than ever with the added 31’s and with the CWT‘s seeing a bigger change than the CLX believe it or not. Why? Easy, the subs improved the mids on the CWT’s and I’m REAL picky about clarity there. The CLX are already pristine in the mids. I’d rather hear great midrange than great bass given the choice. Sure, I have across the board with the CWT’s and ALMOST with the CLX. The CLX’s deficiency is largely mitigated, though.

Why do I like the CLX so much STILL as the CWT’s are so improved? That’s easy too, those awesome mids and soundstage size. Line source type speakers can’t do that that aren’t big and tall. Maybe the sub six pack will increase the perceived soundstage of the CWT’s to approach the CLX. Have to see about that.

The six pack can’t change the upper mid bass as the subs are linear to the same upper frequency no matter the number of them. Subs are NOT mid bass drivers. That’s mostly the main speakers job and the CWT’s have that nailed.

But now, with the REL 31’s there is no waiting for bass that seems AWOL most of the time playing the CLX. It is there most of the time and in proper amplitude and dynamics, and even the mid bass is better but it is just a gentler touch. Some of the transient violence is trimmed off. Without the CWT’s to compare to, most won’t even notice.

And the speaker cables are all the exact same. Series II ICONOCLAST TPC’s.

Galen

PS - I won’t need another P20 with the six pack. The current power draw is 600 watts (50% capacity usage) at the volumes I listen. The total SPL will be the same with six as two. The volume will be trimmed across the stack such that the total power draw will be the same as a stereo pair running harder. It isn’t about volume, but clarity and speed (drivers all move less), plus the launch into the room is far, far more even and higher in ultimate image size.

Got to go…Warren Zevon Excitable Boy has launched on the turntable!

Galen

[brian.fitterman]

@tony22

Rhythmiks are great subs, as long as you’re not using high level inputs from an amp with balanced output. In a case like that the amp will go boom. It’s really unfortunate because I love how they perform, and their control flexibility.

I got a pair of F12 SE .. they have the high level and work great. I use those on my two channel and two G25HP subs for theater. I too highly recommend Rythmik if REL is out of budget. For the BHK I use the Ground Lug which worked just fine. And yes I found out the hard way, but the amp did not go boom, it shut down. Got very very lucky.

[tony22]

@brian.fitterman

Got very very lucky.

Yep. In the case of Pass amps, they will definitely go boom.

[paul172]

@rower30

Later I’ll match them up with the CLX, up the cross-over to 45 Hz and tune the level.

My Rel no. 25’s are set at 65 Hz w/my CLX’s and I’m pretty happy.

[rower30]

My room is “L" shaped and 40 feet long on the longer leg. The stereo faces into the LONG dimension and the left side is adjacent to the short leg. Unlike most rooms, my bass peak is on the 30 Hz region.

Bass is definitely subjective as we can make way more bass than reality, but who cares if you like it. The 31’s are real firm, tight subs so they don’t get too warm in the mids, which is nice as blending is easier with them. The two models are surely different in the control sloops, too. My L10 might be your L6.

I’m clearly a few day into the REL 31’s but so far I really like them except that too bright power LED on the back that makes dark room daylight. LED’s on stuff are supposed to be an INDICATOR, not a light bulb! Heaven help me with six going. Science dictates the SIZE for a 12” driver to be properly loaded, but ya, they are kind of big. That doesn’t matter in my basement room, but in a living space they will live in a LOT of the space. Front to back they are deep making them room hogs for sure. I think the piano black is supposed to make them seem smaller, it isn’t working! Maybe on TV that works. They do shrink my CWT’s apparent size. Hey, do I look fat sitting by these?

I’ll try the 65 Hz but it may be too much at L15, I’ll set the level back down to 10 and give it a whirl. I’ve always, in my room, had better luck with a lower X-over and a higher level.

My stats suggest I’m definitely NOT a headbanger. My P20 shows 600 watt, 50% load factor, for the ENTIRE system playing at reference 83 dB average level, so I’m hardly pushing anything. I will get the dedicated 20A outlet in and plug the P20 into that. I have a shared 20A outlet now.

Galen

Update - lower X-over level @ 45 Hz and higher level at 14. Seems very close to ideal. The REL are very good at timber and nuances in the bass. These aren’t home theater devices in a big, big room no. For just music at normal listening levels they are fine.

[rower30]

A little more set-up on the CLX. Paul suggested a 60 or so x-over. In my room that’s too high but I ended up at 50 Hz and level 13 on the CLX. I made a few changes and all of a sudden several hours went by and I forgot what I was supposed to be doing (fixing the subs inetgration) and went to listening to music. This tends to say the settings are darn close to right.

I like a leaner sound than most probably. The summer (warm), fall (warm with a trace of cool), winter (cool) spring (cool with a trace of warmth) thing. My target is spring; cool with a trace of warmth. This is likely why I like the lower cross-over frequency since it leans out the warmer upper bass. The CWT’s air suspension bass is a spring sound, cooler than warm, tighter and leaner too so the RELs fall right into that.

In this hobby, is is good to know what taste you have early on so your changes are not going opposite those built-in tastes we all have. Trying to mitigate a super warm summer device with leaner and leaner stuff to arrive at a spring sound is bound to fail. A touch here or there, true. But stuff needs to be at least adjacent seasons to one another; winter and spring, spring and summer, summer and fall fall and winter for example. But to get a winter and summer to sound right? Problems.

I use the T+A M40 HV amps and it drives T+A nuts that I like the AB mode the best (leaner and bouncy sound) over the exotic class A dual bi-amp (each side of the amp drive a separate set of drivers) mode. Class A adds more warmth than I like. I can flick two switches and immediately hear the comparison. Nope, back to AB mode. Know who you are.

The REL are a spring kind of sound. The REL 31’s are NOT warm sounding devices. So be aware when you match them to warmer speakers. Sure, the tap off the amp can move a warmer amps sound to the 31’s to color the transition better but it can’t really change the leapords spots entirely. Being real low bass can hide this better than up the frequency range, true.

I called Bob, same as you all do, and ordered a set of series I and II ten footers with 7.5mm spades on each end in SPTPC for the speakers (bi-wire the CWTs, single wire the CLX with series II’s). I know, you have better cables than I do! My stuff is almost all lab built test samples. I’m also getting some two-wire REL sub speakON lines with locking bananas.

After that I need real BAV power cords for the eventual six pack. 10 AWG on the lower and 12 AWG on the middle and 14 AWG on the upper. Current demand drops off significantly as the level is reduced up the stack. No need for massive power cords up there. Actually, the 10 AWG at the bottom is overkill too, but they lay on the floor and gravity won’t get in the way trying to unplug them. Still, sensibly a 12 AWG is plenty. With a six pack the 14 AWG up the stack is truly plenty as the LEVEL is reduced a bunch. That’s the point, run stuff easier to improve dynamics. Remember, my ENTIRE system at full honk that I listen to pulls just 600 watts. I have to pay attention to the same advice I give you all, yes?

Best, Galen

[RonP]

When set to AB, at what point do they leave class A?

[rower30]

For class A we see this; In “High Current” mode,the voltage swing range of the output stage is between ±50 V. By reducing the voltage swing, the no-load current is increased. This allows the M 40 HV to operate in pure Class A mode for power outputs up to 60 watts, switching to Class AB mode beyond 60 watts. The maximum rated output power can reach 250 watts.

I haven’t seen the class A bias swiching level for the T+A M40 HV’s in AB high power mode. The amps idle warm, so class A before AB is pretty high.

1. High Power Mode:

   • Nominal Output Power (8 ohms / 4 ohms): 550 watts / 1,000 watts

   • Maximum Output Power (8 ohms / 4 ohms): 570 watts / 1,070 watts

2. High Current Mode:
   • Power: Up to 60 watts in pure Class A, up to 250 watts in Class AB mod

Galen

[rower30]

WHEW, the Martin Logan BF212’s are up out of the basement onto the proper SKIDS for FREIGHT. I need to get strapping to afix the skids to the boxes and they will ship well. These are such a good sub woofer for the price and really versatile. I also have the perfect bass kit to DSP them where ever they are placed to further allow various placements to match them to a new spot. The DSP is a cinch to use. Also, you can download a low frequency X-over point from Martin Logan to match the mains. Just stick it on a USB stick and once and done as they say. It can be turned on and off as needed. The controls are all on the top of the sub so no crawling around. Plenty of reviews on these.

A heads up on anyone needing virtually like new subs. DO look at the raw subs SIZE, these are dual 12” drivers with 1800 watt amps in each enclosure. These can bring hell to the party and destroy it.

Galen

[scotte1]

I like to just look at the picture of those T+A amps. Does that mean I have a problem?

Just for giggles, what are you currently thinking of asking for the subwoofers?

Cheers.

[Edit/PS: Do you have/are you selling all of the room correction kit - HW and SW - as well?]

[rower30]

Scotte,

Yes, the set-up is best as a STEREO pair, and the perfect bass DSP system (an option) comes with them. The DSP box will ship standard UPS.

I’m asking $5,000.00 for the whole set-up. Shipping is where it goes, and is freight limited load capacity because it is over 150 pounds (~ 160#’s in boxes). The REL’s were $400 each to ship from Chicago to Oxford, Ohio and they weight about the same but were bulkier boxes. Need to get quotes on destination. Some like to use a special carrier and have a pick-up this way shipping is in their control. Either way, the skids are going to be affixed to the skids for hand truck only handling…no dropping or rolling the boxes around!

They are factory double boxed and guaze and poly wrapped inside. All the literture is in the boxes, too. basically like new. These are such well made subs it is ridiculous they didn’t cost more ($5,000 each MSRP). I almost want to build a new house with a home theater to use them! The BF212’s are about state of the art for the price range and reviews suggest no one has as good a DSP as the Martin Logan’s. My experience seems to back that up, it works and is easy to use right.

The BF212’s are too good to not make someone real happy.

Galen

[rower30]

Scotte,

The T+A M40 HV amps are art deco gorgeous, yes. The voltage gain “tubes" are 6SN7’s and DO NOT glow like that! What you see are orange LEDs to look like they are glowing! Gobs of MOSFET power in the current gain stage. Two amps in one, A or AB, as needed. Like most things, WAY expensive but cheap compared to bleeding edge stuff. You do get a decent amp for the still high price.

They sound “typical" of each current stage, A (warmer) or AB (fast and bouncy). If not different the choice is largely wasted, yes?

Galen

[RonP]

Described perfectly, as if from Earth rather than Ork.
Nahnoo

[rower30]

Now I have production cable! I got my set of 10 foot SPTPC series I and II speaker cables with the 5 foot REL sub cable. I’ll use the series II on the CLX, and bi-wire the CWT’s. Now I have production quality leads for the first time ever. WOW, these look really nice when ever I see them in the real which used to be only at the shows! Pictures don’t do them justice. The in hand experience is great with the termination work done at Blue Jeans. Glad to see the quality you all experience from ICONOCLAST and BAV products.

Someone has to listen to them, may as well get to work with QOBUZ.

Best all, Galen

[rower30]

I said I’d do it and I did finally get it done. No, not the six pack yet but that’s moving along too. I got the dedicated 20A outlet installed for the P20. Its a single plug so nothing can share the line back to the box. The P20 shows that I use 47% load at as loud as I’ll ever play (83 dB average). The PC, Ethernet power-line adapters and everything else “noisy" is on the secondary 20A line. With two 20A circuits there is plenty of power now!

Moving wire through finished walls is a pain. The ceiling route wasn’t in the cards. Jerry, a retired electrician friend, couldn’t get it through high. We decided to go the low road between the concrete wall and the studs, and that got the outlet where it needs to be. Better, we used just 35’ of ROMEX plug to box. The box was FULL with no places left. I had Jerrry double two lightly used 15A circuit lines on a siamese breaker and this made space for a 20A breaker (dedicated outer wall). That innocent looking pesky outlet was a real character to get installed.

Galen

[rower30]

Questions on PHASE. Cables have PHASE absolutely. We have the reactance to thank for that, capacitive and inductive.

Do understand how reactance, the end product of the two acting out is PHASE, is to grasp how analog signals are moved down the wire. What is the signal?

For this, we need to go to the SUPERPOSITION theroem. In an analog signal, the AMPLITUDE is the SUM of ALL the signals at every point in time. Put a VOM on your speaker terminals playing music and an you’ll get absolutely ONE voltage at any instant, no matter how small, in time.

Big deal, so what. Well, our music is very TRANSIENT stuff, and why things that are maybe less accurate playing test tones are hugely good playing transient music. We hear the transients, almost never a steady state test tone. Sure, we’d like both to be good but transients are better being “perfect”. And, we don’t yet test for that really. Waterfall plots are about as good as we get but those really test DECAY. We don’t want our stuff ringing after a signal is sent through the speakers.

Consider this, if we have just TWO super thin and razor sharp PEAKS at the same time they ADD to create a much larger voltage. Now SHIFT but an itty bitty bit and now the peaks are besides each other in time, that nice WHACK transient is AWOL and we get a far softer sound. We hear two almost at the same time peaks. The signal is stretched out and a far lower amplitude. Phase is drastically important in analog for this reason. It is ADDATIVE, too. The phase is what is left at the end of the chain. What comes OUT is all we can work with.

Take the REL 31 or any sub. The signals AMPLITUDE is what we hear, not so much phase. Oscilliscopes “hear” phase, though! I can shift phase of a single test tone and see it on an oscilliscope but your hearing won’t detect it UNTIL I add MORE tones, then we hear the voltage phase moving in conjunction with the other tones as LOUDNESS and tonality changes. We increase the amplitude or decrease it with phase shift of the single test tone in conjunction with the others. Our ears are good at this kind of “phase”. I guarantee you you can’t hear a single tones phase. Add more signals, then yes.

In a sub, we can indeed hear ONE signal, however, because we are playing that “one” single frequency but now from TWO sources, each with a PHASE attached to the frequency. The idea is to align the two sources PHASE such that the same frequency has the same phase going into the room, and this add to a larger amplitude or “volume”.

We don’t use a single test tone, though. We don’t hear pure test tone PHASE setting up a sub woofer (you could play a test tone), we usually hear the superposition of the PHASE playing music and altering “phase”. Do ALL the subs frequencies match the alternative “source” frequency phase at maximum perceived amplitude? No, but moving a subs phase playing music and we optimize the error to get musical transients nearly as good as intended.

Best, Galen

[Welliwonder]

Hi Galen,

Do you have any experience using these cables with Quad ESL 63s? I’m intrigued as I’ve read the Quads like a low inductance, low capacitance, and low to medium resistance cable, and the Iconoclast series seem to fit perfectly. I’m curious about your thoughts, and which Series / Wire type you would recommend. If it helps I’m using a solid state preamp and Class AB amps from DB Systems, and tend to prefer a more immersive listening experience that errs on the warm side.

Thank You

[rower30]

The series I is 45 pF/foot and the series II is 65 pF/foot See the actual dual bi-wire measurements- https://iconoclastcable.com/techpapers/Parallel-Bi-Wire-Effects.pdf ). Both are 0.08 uH/foot inductance. Don’t forget that the “load” is the total length, not the reference values per foot.

The speaker really doesn’t care what the speaker cable is, the amplifier is what is going to have problems driving the total load. Most amplifier loads are largely more capacitive than inductive, especially at lower frequencies. Watch the speaker impedance and reactance charts in the Stereophile reviews and the reactance is mostly negative and capacitive in low frequency regions. The default “negative” sign for the capacitive reactance is because the current leads the capacitors ability to CHANGE voltage with applied current. Capacitor voltage slowly changes over time, thus it “lags” (negative or behind) the “plus” designated current phase. This is why many amps use an inductive load at the output stage to help offset the capacitive load in the strong current and power dissipation low frequency region. You want the amplifier’s load to look resistive where the huge wattages are being used. The inductive load offsets the capacitive reactance making the load closer to resistive. A capacitor is fundamentally a short circuit to current when voltage is initially applied, and why it is so demanding on the amplifier. The current draw tapers off as the capacitor charges up to the applied voltage potential. But wow, that initial current demand is HUGE.

Like my Martin Logan CLX, the QUAD’s are higher impedance (~18-30 ohms) at lower frequencies but the equivalent resistive load is much lower due to the capacitance. As you go up up in frequency the impedance drops, a lot (1 ohm or even less).

This sound YIKES but little current demand is required in the treble so it’s not critical to the amplifier. This means an amplifer that can deliver good current into low frequencies is required. Generally, amplifiers that can DOUBLE their power into 4 ohms compared to eight are good at current delivery. Look at your amplifier specifications for power at 4 and 8 ohms, does it approximately double? This will impact how your quads are driven more than the speaker cable.

If you want a little more detail, and less warmth use the series II. Although the sereis I is very resolving compared to a reference type zip cord, the series II is even better. The OFE copper is a warmer quality than the SPTPC or TPC. I’d listen to the OFE and TPC series I speaker cable as a reference to select the copper.

I use series II SPTPC into my CLX and with amplifiers (Sim Audio W-8 and now T+A M40-HV) that can double the power into four versus eight ohms load, thus have excellent current delivery.

As long as the speaker leads are ten feet or shorter, the speaker holds the upper hand in the total load presented to the amplifier. Most modern speaker cables are fine. A few designs (flat parallel copper plates with dielectric between them is a long capacitor!) need to be avoided if total capacitive load is to be mitigated. Not the best choice for electrostatic speaker.

Best, Galen Gareis

[Welliwonder]

Thank you very much for the detailed reply Galen. Good news is my amplifier should be able to deliver plenty of current to drive the Quads, and the speaker cable length would only be six feet.

Having read the article you linked I’m curious if you’ve tested parallel runs of 1310A vs single runs of Series I and II in terms of swept impedance and Vp. I didn’t see the parallel run on the graph.

All The Best,
Daniel

[rower30]

I didn’t run the 1310A or 1313A because the loop DCR of “big” conductors is the worst case reference Vp trace. The DCR is low and the capacitance is low and both raise the Vp differential curve the most because the R*C is in the equation denominator. And, this is also why it is so, so hard to adjust the Vp as it requires SMALL wires and a lot of them such that the aggregate DCR is low, but that tries to RAISE the capacitance. Wires in parallel with a dielectric on them is essentially a capacitor. We have to figure out how to reduce that capacitance variable and keep inductance low too.

1310A will be on half the input impedance of 1313A. And putting them in parallel will half it again (measured actual data). This is why we suggest using 1310A as your best VALUE play for speaker cables. Lower impedance and a better swept DCR and smaller wires have more efficient wire cross section across frequency. It is not much more, but a lower impedance wired star quad.

Best, Galen