Thanks for refresher. I went back and reviewed your white papers again. I believe I chose series 2 because of the better Vp where my lLF to MF crosses at 400 hz where VP is climbing. I wanted to avoid the step function transition. I should stop being curious and remember why I made decision at the time. The impedance is still close between 1 and 2 and my cost is sunk now in a pair of series 2 speaker cables. . I will play with autoformer taps instead moving the MF/HF to 4 ohm instead.
The Vp slope is less than single digits until 1,000 Hz. Below 500 Hz it isn’t audible. You’re fine with the series II full range. Look at the units in the graph.
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Very nice review, Galen. Does this new vertical height maintain the natural scale of instruments?
I have heard some systems where the performers sound bigger than life.
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Supertramp in concert is bigger than life! But, no, our systems won’t ever be properly proportioned to “live” in all it’s variations. True. But the sense of elevation off the floor is completely and addictively more proper in my mind. Simple vocal recording are placed in space where you’d expect voices to really be. Strange to me how subs do this, however. The bass energy is MUCH better distributed UP and OUT. This adds to the excellent sound stage placement similar to what ICONOCLAST cable provides, it just sounds RIGHT with the six pack at the shows. I have not gotten the whole thing going yet with cables and with the REL area folks stopping by. The stereo set are superb sounding in their own right, as should be expected with the maxed out tech.
You don’t need to go the the cost side that I did as there are stackable REL subs that will also get the effect going. But it is, and always will be, a luxury when cost is factored in. It’s the effect that is left to do that may or may not be a step too far for lots of reasons. Some may truly not even like it. I decided what the hell. That’s me. Just stop by an REL six pack demo and decide. Have them unplug the subs (two quick speakON to unplug) and listen to supposed full range speakers (not satellite type) alone, wow. You’ll hear it. Then decide. Me, I’m addicted to a BIG and OPEN soundstage type music. Think 1000 years song by Dwight Yoakam. Mini monitors can’t do that so for me, the change is worth it.
Best, Galen
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That’s pretty neat; and good to know.
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Getting closer! All the cords arrived today. Yep, SIXTEEN EPDM BAV power cords (photo) all on the P20 with a dedicated AC line to the box. The REL speakON jumpers are perfect at 25” tip-tip. No longer than 27” for a nice fit (photo).
Now to do my ammature effort to set it up. I have the cross-over set, just below where the music get dull and too blurry in the bass and for each sub running by itself blending with the main.
The LEVEL is what is hardest as ALL the subs are running at once, of course. The middle sub USUALLY is the lower level than the upper to keep bass coupling to the lowest sub clean. The upper has the least low frequency response up in the air.
We shall see how I do. Stay “tuned”.
Galen
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One more move and you’ll need another P-20!!
These are the world’s best value in power cords! An absolute steal.
I can assure all that if there was a better choice for a power cord, Galen would have them running his audio system. $$ is not the consideration, performance is!
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BobBJC You too funny…
@BobBJC I have 2, and will soon add 3 more.
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One word to the wise, if you have a BUNCH like I do all snaked together, the EPDM is a TOUGH and RUBBERY compound so they will by nature of the material have a high coefficient of friction routing them. I chose to keep costs low and to not use up resources (ya, I still get the lesser stuff so you don’t!). Do get the tech flex as this nylon sheath helps them slide around with ease. It is worth it. It is more than for looks, so I point that out.
Best, Galen
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Thank you!
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The six pack initial listenable configuration review…
Let me step aside of the value argument. We can argue the cost and if it is worth it, but that’s not the same agument as the superior sound. OK, that said lets go.
I was WAY off in the settings over what so called common sense would suggest. With six going, you’d think each would be dialed down from a stereo set. Nope, the stereo set remained the same level but 5 Hz lower X-over (25 Hz) and the upper subs were set higher in level than expected. I won’t show settings only because they are useless to you. No rooms, mains or even the subs you use are the same but GENERAL tips are useful. The P20 shows total system power went from 47% to 49%, so no real issue on power. Peak is about 670 watts for the entire set-up at 80-83dB SPL nominal.
The sound. I can quickly change from the mains, main+stereo subs and main+six pack. Differences, oh yes. The mains alone I could not go back to (they are rated down to 26 Hz). An entire part of the music is nearly gone. The subs make them WAY better, and bring that missing link to the soundstage (we know that), but located at the bottom of it. We don’t notice that until…until you hear a six pack you’ll never understand that set-up, and how it properly builds the entire sound stage.
Most of my sources have bass that will image MUCH higher than with the stereo sub set. Some sources are still floor crawler bass. Once you hear the broader and higher stereo imaging you just can’t go back. Sure, you can say at what cost but once you hear it, you can’t deny wanting it. The subs are staggered higher X-over as they go up the stack. The middle sub is the lowest level so as to keep too much low frequency coupling that makes BOOM in the bass.
Strangely, the higher than expected level on the upper subs does not blurr the lower vocals at all. The sound stage is higher and wider, actually making the vocals be more in contrast to the bass, and this improves the sense of clarity.
Also odd to me, is the SPL of the bass isn’t “more” with four more subs and at a higher than expected level but it is more DENSE and tactfully heard. I didn’t need “more” bass, I needed a better overall soundstage and yes, this is indeed what the six pack does as well as make the base denser and more tonally correct. The bass if you will is a more solid and with a darker background where everything higher and lighter in my example stands out more.
Here is the warning. This is not even close to a buy it and throw it out there kind of device(s) upgrade. It take HOURS and HOURS to get it right. I’m somewhere inside the outfield and close to the bass (pun there) lines but in no way inside the bass lines or heavens, home bass. We will see how I fine tune it over time. Bass is just too “mastered” to ever be the same. We get a good center and accept up or down from there, but an equal “up” and “down”. That’s all we can do unless we dial it in for every song.
Right now I’ve cut the bass one value on the right as the stack is in the corner. The overall balance is +2dB to the left where the speaker is out in the open facing the “L”. This centers the image more often. Again, stuff is all over the place on image placement. Fix it for one song it is off for the next. I just use a 2 KHz mono tone and center that. Again, stuff will be left, right and center from there.
Overall, I enjoy the new sound. Some records I’ve listened to for years; Dancing in the Dragon’s Jaws, Bruce Cockburn, are like new masters. Sources with little bass is even more open and ambient in the room. Having heard it at shows, and now in my room, I’d say the improvement is definitiely what you’ll want. How to best afford it is the fun part of this hobby…there are more ways than one to do this.
My system didn’t know the language of one-third of the music until the six pack arrived and all the emotion that brings.
Best, Galen
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Looking forward to your review with the 6pk and CLX!
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And this may be the greatest example of the patience you always display.
The CLX are next! I hope to get a workable setting faster after learning some with the CWT’s. I switch speakers every month or so. I put the 175 pound CWT’s on furniture slider using the metal hardwood floor caps so moving the heavy speakers is easier.
Someone mentioned an album on Qobuz called Spaceman by Nick Jonas that has wild synthetic bass low frequency powerful bass lines. Well, there is no way even the two 31’s could clobber you the way the six pack does with ease. No strain at all it just gobbles up the room. And, I’m pretty sure I had level the in sudo entertainment mode with too much bass. I dialed it back to what seems blended but you can never tell on this electronic type music how strong it was meant to be. I went back to stuff I’m used to with the dialed back settings and the bass was GONE with the adjustment, thus the bass in the Spacemen album is indeed pretty powerful stuff.
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I need to add several MORE hours to that hours and hours line after experimenting with Nick Jonas Spaceman album. This guy is way out of my generation but I like the album! Super ambient and full of pratt. But where does it fall on bass level settings? A sort of clue was it is super CLEAR and precise synthesized bass at the original volume. Usually, if you over do above the mix, it gets ugly. I’m 100% unfamiliar with this album.
Bass is so, so incredibly “mixed” your references are going to nag at you. This patience coming from a PC gamer that isn’t so good at them. I’ve died over 900 times in STALKER 2 and I’m not finished, or the game isn’t finished with me! I refuse to make it easier.
Patience is relative. Compared to the years designing and testing ICONOCLAST, this is a moment thing. I usually walk away and return the next day and just listen to my familiar stuff I have on a play list on the last settings. What does that say about the bass level and clarity? If it’s good there, the unknowns are more sure to be “correct” with a little or a lot of bass. Turns out Nick Jonas spaceman has a lot of bass and I’d never hear it as mixed without the six pack. You may think you do but…I was wrong. You can’t brush aside the six pack in your head with logic, you have to experience it.
Galen
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Hi Galen….. I’ve been following your six-pack set up. Suggestion: On Qobuz, try the group called Porn Sword Tobacco.
Craig
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I’m listening to Porn Sword Tobacco, recommended above by Calord, as I write this. This album isn’t at all as scary as the name suggest. The CLX are enjoying it! Good to write review while listening to.
I have the CLX up and running the last couple days with the six pack. For those that don’t know about the CLX, these are full range electrostatic’s that fail by omission. They don’t go below 50’ish hertz linear to the mids on up. What’s they do, is fantastic. The bass panel is too small to go deep and/or provide the power of HUGE panels but, these fit in your room!
The settings for the CLX are vastly different than the CWT 1000-40’s. With the CLX, the six pack is the bass, where it supports the bass with the CWT’s. Cross-overs are, right now; 45, 35 and 30 Hz top to bottom. The levels are way lighter with the higher frequency output of the REL 31’s, so only 5,3, 8 top to bottom. For comparison the CWT’s were 30, 28, 25 Hz top to bottom and 9, 5 and 11 on level. The higher cross-over points adds a LOT more bass. It just does. The numbers are not linear grouped together.
My tune ideas are to keep the mids crisp and clear while getting the maximum POP in the bass. I’m not too worried about earthquake bass, so I error on the side of crips bass. But, the REL’s won’t listen and shake the house on occasion anyway.
Also, remember, this is about how the bass sound stage is presented, not the quantity of bass per se. Sure, in the case of the CLX it mostly “is” the bass but once that is satisfied, banging away above level that isn’t the idea. No one should listen and go away with the idea bass chased them out of the room. A listener should never even notice the slightly softer mid bass POP done right and done right they do exactly that. The leading edge immediacy of the CLX replace the need for the contrasting dynamic BETTER in some ways than cone driver speaks as they carry so, so much more harmonic detail to the party. No, you’ll never miss the AWOL upper harmonics stats bring until you own or hear both types of speaks, and exactly why I have both types. But the CWT’s that are as good but are TWICE the price and yes, are electrostatic. The harmonic detail easily makes up for that rock and Rock mid bass POP to many a listener. A speaker’s got to know its limitations, and so should we.
My CWT’s with electrostatic panels above 2,000 Hz are excellent in upper response, with the eight small mid bass couples they can carry the detail the CLX do, but at a HUGE price increase. But here again the strengths of the CWT’s carry their sound just fine. All speakers are like that, make sure it is mostly all good, and you’ll be happy. Just don’t for a second you think you “know” about other speaker sound quality. You don’t. I don’t. That’s what AXPONA is for. Better, compare IMMEDIATELY in your home or wherever. Your memory is awful even an hour after.
The REL 31’s 12” carbon drivers are super transparent to the source and blend with the CLX upper tonality very well. I’ve skipped all over from warm, to clinical to Electronic Dance Bass and it’s all good. The bass is the source…although I like a harder crisp bass over warmth, I admit. Bass is subject to HUGE thumb on the scale mixing because we just like bass. Your flat system is way far from flat playing most mixes, and I hear large, large differences in bass levels. Way too much to ever be flat on any of them. I never left my system bass “flat” EQ, either. I hated it that way. The idea of flat bass with source EQ is impossible, so I go for a leaner tighter bass that manages SPL better to my ear. But, the source is what you get and the REL 31’s won’t change that. I also target 80-83 dB average SPL where ears are flattest to bass We lose sensitivity with volume pretty quick. The speaker doesn’t, we do.
The CLX with their open baffle nature have a HUGE open sound stage. The six pack fits right into the with a lifted bass personality that images more true to HEIGHT, not SIZE. The bass still has to be in proportion to the source to sound right. Bass is slightly bigger, but not overly so.
The place where the 31 subs work is excellent. But it can’t replace stuff they don’t really PLAY, and this leaves the CLX’s mid bass mostly as is. True, the 31’s play UP from the 45 Hz cross-over and give more POP, yes. And I’ll talk it too! Right now, going above 45 Hz is a hertz too far, impacting the midrange. Still, no one should think that the 31 subs do bass in the 100-300 Hz range. They don’t and can’t and won’t. Neither will the CLX as well as other design speakers. That SLAM or POP you get with large ported speakers, or big full range air suspension comes only with the largest stats, like King Sound or the likes of the Martin Logan Monolith. But fit those in most rooms!
What the CLX with the REL 31’s bring is superb performance where each work the best. Sure, we have a slight hand-off softness in the upper mid bass that makes the tonality of each speaker so, so critical to match. Here air suspension subs do it the best but to do it right they are BIG, too. Getting the Monoliths down the stairs somehow MIGHT fit in the same spot after all! The magic of the six pack will be missing, though. That wonderful open expansive image is enhanced in the right ways. The CLX with the six pack of 31’s simply gets the most out of them they have to give. They give a voice to music that isn’t possible without them. Once you hear it, you will need it. Few will believe in the advantage. I’m good with that. life is a mystery in many areas for me too. For music and the six pack? This mystery has been solved. I KNOW.
Listen awhile and you adjust to any speakers strengths over the weaknesses, and why we can enjoy many, many systems. Don’t think that you need the absolute best to enjoy what a six pack of subs can do. I’d look at six subs that are about what your speaker mains cost. If you are way below that than yes, concentrate on speakers that do all but the lowest bass well first. Ideally, the subs, if you buy good ones, will carry over several mains.
My take, the CLX benefit more from the six pack than the CWT’s as the CWT’s have less crime of omission. The vocals on the CLX are just so, so holographic and real for the price of the speaker. There is a sense of easy everywhere up and down with the six pack, too. The CLX aren’t doing anything they don’t do anyway, but with the subs OFF all of a sudden music seems to struggle. The emotion is taken away somehow. You need to hear it. The REL 31’s provide a reverberatory solid grip on the bass that I enjoy. Not all sources have that quality, no doubt.
Either set of speakers I could live with, and the six pack makes that more so in both cases. Sure, the CWT’s excel more but at a massive price difference. The 31’s, stereo or six pack, just bring more to the CLX. Does this mean the CLX are “worse” naked? Maybe. You need to value what speakers do for you to decide that.
If you own the CLX, the REL 31’s are a superb match. Be aware of the SIZE though. These are big heavy subs. Two are also far, far easier to tune for first timers. But you’ll get the six if you can! REL can assist in the set-up. Stay tuned for that experience. We will see what the pros tweak out that I can’t.
Best all, Galen
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For those with heavy speakers and/or stuff to move, I have a title trick that works really well. The CWT’s are like 175 pounds. I put the spikes into the hardwood floor pucks, but set those into foam filled furniture slider. They settle in and seem to stay put. Now, little 140 pound me can grasp the spikes and slide the CWT’s along the carpet into the closet when I bring out the CLX. Many don’t try different speaker placement positions because moving heavy speakers is a pain. With this little gimmick, I can move them inches to feet, no sweat. Find the best spot? Mark it and remove them if you wish.
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Great review, Galen! Thank you! I own the CLX speakers. Initially, I used them with a pair of JL Audio F113s. However, I was able to purchase a pair of Rel No. 25s from @minnesotafats which was a game-changer in my opinion. I’ve always wanted a six-pack of No. 25s with the CLX. Considering the cost, I believe the pairing of the Rel subs with the CLX is a fantastic deal, especially compared to more expensive and exotic speaker systems. I’m currently using the Bacch4mac, thanks to @aangen. In my opinion, the Bacch gets a pair of subs close to what I believe is a six-pack-type sound, with improved imaging and height. I hope to get the four extra subs someday to achieve the ultimate sound experience.
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