Thanks Galen!
I appreciate the honest assessment and guidance. I will certainly take everything you have said into consideration and I especially respect the fact that you prioritize “proper” over “profit.” Not the norm in this industry by any stretch of the imagination.
Cheers,
Jeff
Galen,
I put in the UPOCC gen 2 on Tuesday pulling the OFE Gen2 XLRs. I have now been running my McIntosh MX150 preamp at a lower level down two notches versus the OFE to get a comfortable listening level that is same 12 watt peaks. So far much clearer and not as fatiguing with bad sources as the OFE were. Some unlistenable poorly recorded sources are much more tolerable I also am able to to increase volume to crazy wattage levels with 1000 WPC dynamic peaks on great symphony sources with the UPOCC ICs. You would not guess the music was peaking there and it is not drive you out of room loud. I feel the music to be more natural live sound than the OFE.
I will swap in the ETPC ICs after another week then report back. Then after use of the TPC back to UPOCC to see if the expense is worth it or a mix and match is a substitute.
The theory of softening with OFE maybe relavent. But night and day better with UPOCC. Curious to read Audo Bacons final reviews. So far absolutely loving UPOCC.
I swapped in the BAV versus a twisted Kimber RCA on my surround channels for HT. I think the BAV is better performance. Will have to swap back to know for sure. My speaker cable for surround maybe factor.
I will not be able to use Iconoclast for surrounds given routing in a small conduit with tight bends. What Belden speaker-would you recommend as moderate cost uprade versus a 14 gauge that were repurposed from an old factory Bose system I repurposedsince it was already in place.
Yes, the copper science is maddeningly hard to, “say it like it is”. I can point to calculation and measurement on ALL variables getting better, but those attributes improve for equally all copper grades.
For copper, I can report grains, and resistivity for the copper, honestly, and that is all, so that is all we do. Interconnect seem more sensitive to copper than speaker cables. But, speaker cables can USUALLY make the biggest overall change as the LOAD is so variable. This, of course, requires cable that is fundamentally electrically better. Still, do what you are doing, test the theory before you buy. The cable is far better, but can that add actual performance? ICONOCLAST exists because it indeed can as reported by many understandably skeptical users. I am one of them.
For good basic zip cord type speaker cable, look at 1313A OFHC or 5T00UP TPC. Either is a 10 AWG that is cabled then jacketed so it will pull well. DO NOT get shielded speaker cable. The shield DOES more to hamper electrical than any noise will do on low impedance cable. I can explain more if you like, it all has to do with the consistency of the ground plane. Again, it is all in the physics of what L and C do under a shield.
Galen
Good Morning, you can order the 1313A OFHC or 5T00UP TPC directly from Blue Jeans. They are both great though I believe 1313A is more musical. Different construction but the same AWG. The 5T00UP was designed for “high current” loads necessary to drive large speaker arrays in commercial venues. Either is better than anything I am aware of for surround channels. I look forward to hearing your comments after you make the switch back.
What’s the actual difference between the 1313A and 5T00UP?
What does @rower30 recommend?
Bob,
Seems these are only choices on BJC regular site.
| BJC Ten White (5T00UP) (White jacket, 10 AWG) | 1.31/ft | |
|---|---|---|
| Belden 5T00UP (Gray jacket, 10 AWG) | 1.25/ft | |
| BJC Twelve White (5000UE) (White jacket, 12 AWG) | 0.81/ft | |
| Belden 5000UE (Gray jacket, 12 AWG) | 0.69/ft | |
| Canare 4S11 (Star Quad cable, 14 AWG) |
Where is 1313A located. Do you have a link?
Thanks!
I could not find 1313A either. Give Andrew or Jeff a call and ask them for a price. Sorry we could not find it.
Here is the spec sheets for both.
Of significance 1313A uses OFHC copper, a little better grade than TPC used in 5T00UP. I used 1313A as my benchmark to improve low impedance SPEAKER cables designing ICONOCLAST, this is why you see comparisons made to that part number. It is a very good purist argument reference design. If improvements are to be meaningful, it has to be better than 1313A.
Galen
That’s VERY interesting. Would you also recommend 1313A for subwoofer duty over the 5T00UP?
Remember our systems are full of distortion the lower we go in frequency. The cost difference to use 1313A is minimal, so yes, use the 1313A just so you know that it is the best conventional design. But, either cable will be likely the same 40 Hz and below. Harmonic distortion can be pretty high down there and the SLAM you hear is the upper register harmonics connected to the lower frequencies on say, a bass drum peddle hit. THOSE frequencies “hear” better cable.
Galen
Thanks @rower30 Galen. Out of curiosity, why would BJC say that the 5T00UP is the preferred (favorite) cable?
Our favorite speaker cable is the Belden 5000 series; we carry two offerings, the 10-gauge 5T00UP and the 12-gauge 5000UE (note: with wire gauges, the smaller the number, the larger the wire is). Belden’s standard version of these cables is available only in a gray jacket, with white and black inner conductors; however, we’ve had Belden build us a slightly modified version of each, with a white outer jacket (less conspicuous in many installations) and red and black inner conductors, which we call “Ten White” and “Twelve White”. Both the 10-gauge and 12-gauge versions consist of two separately insulated conductors, twisted together and wrapped in an outer PVC sleeve; the gray version of the 10-gauge 5T00UP is shown at right. Whether in white or gray, or 10 or 12 AWG, all of these cables are UL-listed and NEC-rated for in-wall use (the NEC rating for 5000UE and Twelve White is CL3R; for 5T00UP it’s CL3, and for Ten White, it’s CL2).
Easy, not for most ultra high-end audio. The 1313A goes a little further.
Galen
For AXPONA, I will have samples of each cable design to x-ray view in the flesh, far better than pictures. I will have the BAV and the ICONOCLAST designs to illustrate the differences. Open to any questions and just plain fun. No sales, no marketing, just me (don’t tell them what we did!).
My thoughts were some sort of meet and greet outside a suitable space where we won’t outweigh our welcome. I can look around Friday and see what looks best and sometime Saturday send out a post here, on the blog where we might meet.
Suggestions are always welcome. This is for you after all, your interest is what makes trying to be better enjoyable.
Galen Gareis
ICONOCLAST design engineer
I hope any and all who plan to attend Axpona will take the time to meet with Galen. Great opportunity to learn about the cables directly from the source. Galen is at his best speaking in person about his work. He is the real deal and is working to improve the cabling side of our hobby and the industry. He would love to shake your hand…
Please keep us posted. Sounds like fun!
Bob, will you be attending as well?
Please pardon if this has been covered previously. With all the action on this forum regarding the Iconoclast line, have they been tried on any of the company systems at PS Audio? Just curious.
I wish. Galen and I did this a couple of years back and had a great time. I’m in Florida and waiting an ablation fix for AFib. No fun and no energy. Nothing serious so I will plan to be back next year. Thank you for asking!
I don’t know if you count my system as a PS Audio system, but I’m running ICONOCLAST cables here (see my post earlier in this thread.)
Yes they have, but not the newest 4x4 and 1x4 designs. Ted smith uses ICONOCLAST 4x4 XLR for audition, too, for instance. Ted can attest to the true changes that design can make. He has been a part of the beta process the last few years. ELK has used ICONOCLAST as well.
There are many good sounding products, and all share measurable parameters that make them work. The review on Audio Bacon puts ICONOCLAST at the highest reaches of their reference line, but clearly not every user can possibly hear them the same way. Look at it this way, being a proven design and with a highest regards audition is a very high compliment in a very dynamic hobby.
ICONOCLAST is designed to bring this level of performance to more users. OK, we really nailed the performance. The value to the end user is far higher than it has been in the past for your investment as well.
Galen