Paul has stated that the output stage of the PWD has less than 1 ohm impedance. There is a 100 ohm resistor between the output driver and the connector that was placed there to protect the output stage from shorted outputs. I suspect that the output is well capable of driving sufficient current for any rational input or cable impedance and would survive driving a 10 ohm load at full output for a moderate amount of time. I suspect that they could safely ship with 47 ohm output protection resistors. I wonder if this is something worth considering as a mod (as much as I hesitate to mod a piece of equipment this expensive).
J.P.
Driving even a relatively high impedance load still suffers from bandwidth roll off at lower frequencies due to capacitance effects.
@stereophilus i was going to type that but stoped. I am glad you said it. But the other side of this is I am sure Paul put time into it. But what I am remembering is Paul’s post about less is more. LOL. and how it turned around on him . On another forum there is continues debates about volume control and some claim
Transformers are best but given the issues in that I cannot agree to that. And then mine has a resister network as a volume control. So I honestly do not have an answer .
@stereophilus i was going to type that but stoped. I am glad you said it. But the other side of this is I am sure Paul put time into it. But what I am remembering is Paul's post about less is more. LOL. and how it turned around on him . On another forum there is continues debates about volume control and some claim
Transformers are best but given the issues in that I cannot agree to that. And then mine has a resister network as a volume control. So I honestly do not have an answer .
Al
I do believe the PWD analog output is very good, very well engineered, just not as good as something completely dedicated to the purpose like the CSLS. Using a preamp does concede some transparency (at least so far in my yet to fully burn in preamp), but there is much more to gain from the addition of the preamp (bass, rich timbre, depth). It is likely that the volume control is to blame for the loss of transparency, despite the CSLS being dual transformer based. All types of volume control reduce SQ - that is life!
I tried my own proposition to Paul from the thread on Analog Volume control; that is, is the digital volume attenuation audible above the bit stripping range. The answer is yes, for me anyway. With the DAC volume set to 100, and the analog volume adjusted to compensate, even reducing the digital volume from 100 to 99 produced an audible effect on SQ - a very slight muffled quality.
I may be wrong in my thinking of why a preamp helps (there are lots of theories) but the observation remains.
Well I am a fan of if I can hear it , it’s real. So I am with you , however I have not done this test with my office rig and I do not own a preamp per say . Just something with a analog input and volume control. And that is the way I use the Pwd . The dac is at 100. I did this as when I read about the clicking and poping. But I have never heard any noise from the dac other than bad music. Lol. I also use the the i2s input only , the sound from it is the best for me.
May I ask how much is a good preamp anyway. ? And I am would rather have a SS then tubes , but I am open to both .
How long is a piece of string? The Coincident website will tell you how much my choice costs. “Good” could also apply to the Pass Labs XP-30, at around 3 time the cost of the Coincident. The Pass is SS. Parasound also make a good preamp that is SS and similar price to the Coincident. All depends on what you like.
That is where the hard part comes in . Like is wire with gain as I happy with sound and just want control.
And pass stuff is expensive. If I try I will find someone to loan and listen. It is how we should buy our audio products . I live in NYC around many hi end audio stores. But what is the point of going there to listen to Audio equipment you have never heard in rooms with speakers you nebpber heard either. I bring my own music , but it really is a waisted time unless they let you take it home to audition.
stereophilus said: I do believe the PWD analog output is very good, very well engineered, just not as good as something completely dedicated to the purpose like the CSLS.
I think stereophilus has nailed the issue. The PWD has a great output section and this is probably one of the things that distinguishes it from other components in it's price range. It sounds so good by itself that many preamps degrade its output. With time and listening some have discovered that while it sounds really really good without a pre, there are improvements to be had by adding high quality kit between it and the amp. This really shouldn't surprise us in the end. Even the Big Chief is fully resigned to this notion. It's just the way it is. The PWD is a great component, not a perfect one.
Changing the resistor at the output is an idea that has merit but I'm not willing to give it a go just yet. ~:>
While I agree with the hypothesis, what would be fundamentally different between a preamp and the PWD’s output stage which would make the preamp better at driving an amp?
@ALRAINBOW Less is more and I have always been an advocate of having less in the system. Going directly into the amplifier is, for the most part, better than going through the preamp. But there are cases where this isn’t true. Music Room One is a good example. Here I have a 50 foot run of cables and the preamp helps drive it.
There are other cases where it may sound different and in some cases different is “better” and many people choose this route. In Music Room Two a preamp is clearly not as good. The cables are just a couple of meters.
Good news is the PWD gives you the option to do what’s best.
Read the reviews on the web or, even better from friends with similar rigs and with comments that ring your bell. Then you can try to find Local dealers who will give you a loaner for home testing.
You could also, from the reviews short list, do some shopping on the used market so if you decide to move on the losses are minimized.
From your posts I get the feeling you are on a mission to set up the " ultimate" systems that you will never need to change.
I’m not sure that ever happens, even with big bucks.
This “sport” is more about trial and error and sharing the “highs and lows” with your buds. It will never be perfect for more than than that magical moment when we add something that we “think” causes our jaw to drop.
It all goes back downhill again from there, until the “next” productive tweak.
Paul, your response brings up a coupe of questions from me. First, I recall you mentioning 50 ft of interconnect in your set up dialog. While back, but your room didn’t seem that large. Was 50 ft really necessary? Less is more, right? The other question is, did you ever try a short run of interconnect in Music Room 1? Obviously that would require moving a lot of equipment around temporarily, but it would certainly add a much needed data point to the the discussion of if/why a preamp is good for the system. I should add that after almost a year of going PWD direct I put the preamp back about three months ago and have been very happy with the results. To put it in perspective, I think that change was the most significant I’ve made recently! Most tweeks to me are barely audible, the reinsertion if the preamp was not.
I think reading here and seeing what happens Gordon and Paul are correct it is trial and error. I have not taken the time to test it. But my pwd goes through to analog input device with a supposedly hi end volume control.
And it sounds good. What I have not done yet is go directly. And do an a A/B test. As I read on many forums in my quest for audio
utopia it is clear trial and error. As when people like Paul and others who have been doing this as a profession and they do it too.
This is what must be done. And as for my quick to get there way. Yes I am impatient but it is what I do for a living
Is make things happen. And I just sell what is not happening.
This is part of this journey isint that he game. Now here is a question for Paul the new amp my friend where does it sit with the DAC as preamp or not ?
I also purchased the Coincident Pre-amp and have been using it since last summer. My interest in a separate pre-amp stems from wanting a continue to use my turntable. As well, with the PWD plugged directly into my amp (Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista 300) I could only get the volume to about 30 before the music became too loud.
Well I did this question on other forums and wow the responses . It appears most people do have preamps after there dacs. Even the exotic ones. So this question begs to ask Paul. So could this be a ps audio preamp . Now that would be a statement product regenerated from the past.
@gordon your answer is very true and kind. This hobby is a money pit , but trial and error is the abosolute
Way to approach it. As I am not done with the DEQX active cross over yet and additional room treatments
I would think I am a couple of months off to try it. And as soon as my 7 year old gets out of school it’s off to NC for a while and I hope when I turn that rig on down there it does not go up in smoke. I already had the PSU in the bass module do that once. And the amps are as old as that. How long to caps last anyway.?
Decent electrolytics can last 20 years or more. For our picky selves, not much more. I don't know about metal-foil and metalized polymer capacitors. Longer, but how long I do not know.
While I agree with the hypothesis, what would be fundamentally different between a preamp and the PWD's output stage which would make the preamp better at driving an amp?
Specifically, I am surely not qualified to say. Generally speaking it would be what distinguishes one preamp from another, design and materials. I am thinking, of course, of the PWD's output stage as a preamp itself given it's ample voltage amplifying capability which sets it apart from many other source components. Perhaps a more robust power supply, fire bottles in the right places, layout? Fairy Dust? :)
I suspect the new amp is high on the PSA priority list. My guess would be late fall but that is my Chrystal ball guess and not based on any real grit.
Summer is quiet in the audio-buy world and my intuition tells me the new triangultor will carry the notoriety through that period with more than a few mag reviews.
This should give Paul ample time to tweak and find a suitable woof woof section.
I have dropped hints to him about class-H but so far no reaction from him.
Maybe he is on to something very new and we all know that takes time to do.
Well I have made up my mind to sell the krells before one blows up and melts the whole inside. Of one ot those goes south it will take out a 30 amp 230 ups with it I am sure. And I just bought two new P10,s for down there too. By the way the office rig is up and going pretty good now. And I have all the Mps going on one P10 and all the other stuff on another. And wow those things really do make a big difference too. Funny thing when I post it on other forums they smack right down LOL.
While I agree with the hypothesis, what would be fundamentally different between a preamp and the PWD's output stage which would make the preamp better at driving an amp?
In a word, power. Driving an analogue input circuit, an incoming signal needs to overcome both capacitance and impedance that varies with frequency. The greater the power available to do so, the less loss will occur. We often forget that quoted output and input impedance values are frequency variable.