amgradmd said
So I was listening to the Doors "Morrison Hotel" this morning. I have the DSD 64 version and I think it's SQ is great. Anyway, I was enjoying the listen quite a bit and I then thought I'd compare that version to the Tidal 16/44 PCM version on Roon, just for kicks. So I opened up the Tidal/Roon version and was surprised at how good it sounded. Better than I remembered, actually. I would say at least as good as the DSD 64 version. Then I checked the signal path button and to my surprise Roon was streaming the "Master" version, unpacked to 24/48 PCM! Then I checked a couple other artists in Bowie and Zeppelin, and what do you know, they also are at 24/48! So this whole Roon/Tidal MQA compatibility is happening faster than I thought. but it sounds pretty good. Say what you want about MQA, but if I can stream hi-res in a smaller file format, that's a good thing, IMO. Now how to unpack that last bit on info... Maybe HQPlayer can tackle that problem and leave the DAC out of it. That would be ideal!
Sorry to disappoint, but the 24/48 version is the "packed" file and is only supposed to carry data equivalent to Redbook. Unless the file is "unpacked" or "unfolded" to 24/96 or higher you're not getting hi-res. It took me a while to figure this out too.
Still, the MQA files definitely sound very different from the Redbook files. It’s very hard to compare and form a preference though. Too many variables are changing at the same time. After listened for some time now, I think the Tidal app unpacking to 24/96 is a significant improvement over the Redbook streaming through Roon or through the Tidal app.
I believe you’re right. The first “unfolding” takes the MQA file to 24/96 in Tidal software (not yet in Roon) and then the MQA enabled DAC takes it from there. Still, the fact that Roon is now streaming the files is significant. They didn’t last week. And I believe they sound better than the redbook version. I will have to do a more A:B comparison, but I noticed a difference right off the bat.
amgradmd said
I believe you're right. The first "unfolding" takes the MQA file to 24/96 in Tidal software (not yet in Roon) and then the MQA enabled DAC takes it from there. Still, the fact that Roon is now streaming the files is significant. They didn't last week. And I believe they sound better than the redbook version. I will have to do a more A:B comparison, but I noticed a difference right off the bat.
I was streaming day one through Roon when Tidal released the files. I too was (and still am) impressed with the SQ. My problem was that everything sounds so good through the DS - it's really hard to evaluate. And it's impossible to do a straight A-B comparison. I also have trouble deciding SQ on the basis of A-B. I prefer listening over a period of time with different content and then deciding what I like to listen to. The way I view it is I don't have to make a decision (unless I'm considering buying hardware). I didn't try the Tidal app for about a week because I am suspicious of the SQ of anything coming out of the Tidal app. But I became impatient waiting for the Roon unpacking, so a gave it a listen. I liked it a lot.
The announcement on January 5 that Tidal would begin streaming MQA files (and suggestions that many other streaming services would soon follow suit) was accompanied by an unexpected twist—that MQA decoding can be performed in music-player software rather than exclusively in an MQA-compliant DAC. That is, you can listen to decoded MQA with your existing DAC.
MQA had previously asserted that MQA decoding would take place only in MQA-equipped DACs. Although technically possible to perform MQA decoding in music-player software such as Tidal, Roon, Audirvana, etc., MQA prohibited that scenario in part because software decoding doesn’t deliver the full sound quality that MQA is capable of. MQA is an end-to-end system that ties together the analog-to-digital converter in the studio with the digital-to-analog converter in the listener’s playback system. Software decoding, in which the “unwrapped” MQA file is output as a 96kHz/24-bit stream, doesn’t allow this end-to-end connection because the software player doesn’t know what DAC it is driving. The full implementation of MQA (decoding in a DAC rather than in software) offers better performance because it can correct for known limitations and flaws in the particular DAC chip, among other benefits.
In addition, software decoding is limited to a maximum sample rate of 96kHz. Files that were originally at 176.4kHz, 192kHz, or 384kHz will unwrap only to a maximum of 96kHz, not the original sample rate. There is no such limitation with an MQA-equipped DAC.
For whatever political or business reasons, you can now listen to MQA without an MQA DAC, but with the knowledge that the sound will be better when decoded by an MQA-equipped DAC.
In addition to allowing you to hear MQA-decoded files without an MQA DAC, software decoding offers the possibility of a two-step MQA decoding process. In this scenario the music-player software performs the first decoding step and the MQA DAC performs the final steps to realize the full MQA performance. AudioQuest’s DragonFly Black and Red operate with this two-step decoding process. Such DACs are more properly called MQA “renderers” rather than MQA decoders. The “half-decoded” signal output from your computer to your DAC contains all the information the DAC needs to complete the full MQA decoding.
We’ll have a lot more to say about MQA now that Tidal is streaming the format, and so many new MQA DACs and renderers are about to come to market. But suffice to say, it’s all great news for music lovers.
I was streaming day one through Roon when Tidal released the files. I too was (and still am) impressed with the SQ. My problem was that everything sounds so good through the DS - it's really hard to evaluate. And it's impossible to do a straight A-B comparison. I also have trouble deciding SQ on the basis of A-B. I prefer listening over a period of time with different content and then deciding what I like to listen to. The way I view it is I don't have to make a decision (unless I'm considering buying hardware). I didn't try the Tidal app for about a week because I am suspicious of the SQ of anything coming out of the Tidal app. But I became impatient waiting for the Roon unpacking, so a gave it a listen. I liked it a lot.
Good to know this, I see I have the 2L album in Roon that I think I got from Tidal Masters but it's 24/44.1, is that because it was pre Roon/Tidal Masters or did I not get the right file ? Others I got later are 24/48.
The packed files are mostly 24/48 or 24/44.1, depending on the bitrate of the source file for the new “Master” file. If the original digital file’s maximum bitrate was 192, then the packed file is 48. Unfolded once it becomes 96. Unfolded twice it becomes 192. The 44.1 goes to 88, then 176. There will be a few MQA files (I haven’t seen any yet, but Warner is encoding their entire library) where the source file is 44.1. When that’s the case, the only potential SQ benefit you get is the secret sauce they do in the encoding and decoding.
vsopking said
And then I read this article; coming from Robert Harley - TAS dig magazine:
[big quote deleted]
This was the first big PR announcement, but Danny Dulai - Roon COO and Bob Stuart - Head Honcho at MQA publicly announced it in Jan '16 and Apr '16 respectively. If you're interested, see my posts in this thread for more detail (#208 #263 and #274 have most of the important information in them)
vhiner1 said
PSAudio forum's tighter moderation is certainly a step in the right direction.
As we have seen here, it is a difficult balance. Some complain of any moderation, others demand more.
The far better solution is for forum moderators to shut trolls down.
We try to weed out trolls. sock puppets, shills and other trouble makers. Ted is particularly skilled at sniffing them out. I often worry that I just deleted a post of someone who just happens to be over the top passionate. I stop worrying when they do not come back. :)
And a forum service announcement. Please remember not to click “Quote” for every response. “Add Reply” (at the top and bottom of every page) is often a better choice. If you must quote - Trim! (I have been cleaning up way too many long, long nested quotes, as well as massive quotes.)
Sorry to disappoint, but the 24/48 version is the "packed" file and is only supposed to carry data equivalent to Redbook. Unless the file is "unpacked" or "unfolded" to 24/96 or higher you're not getting hi-res. It took me a while to figure this out too.
Still, the MQA files definitely sound very different from the Redbook files. It’s very hard to compare and form a preference though.
I've listened to a few Master albums now on my microRendu in Roon mode and yes these (packed) files are both different and generally better sounding.
The MQA albums all sound different even without decoding. Here’s a tip: you can listen to the same MQA albums on your iPhone, they are still Hi-Fi, but sound way different. I would love someone to analyze the dynamic range!
I mostly listen to rock and every new MQA album has a more laid back sound. Some have mentioned a bass boost like sound, but remember the same thing may be perceived if the new versions have removed EQ that were making things pop out at us. To me everything is now in better balance.
I’ve listened to a few Master albums now on my microRendu in Roon mode and yes these (packed) files are both different and generally better sounding.
Are you using HQPlayer on your microRendu? The best sound I could get out of the packed files was applying the poly sinc MQA filters and upsampling to 192 pcm with HQPlayer. Then I finally gave the Tidal App a chance - decoded to 96/24 directly into the DS. I thought that was best. It's a bit of a pain to set up and switch from Roon for streaming, but I thought it was worth if.
How can a $180US DAC sound better, by my ears, than my precious $6500US DSD? (Swedish value)
The answer spells MQA.
I just bought a Meridian Explorer 2 DAC to handle the MQA albums on TIDAL. And I am overwhelmed. The comparasion between the MQA album and my HD-album via my PS AUDIO DSD favors the sound of the MQA album on the Meridian Explorer 2.
The highs, midtone and the lows, stereo speretion just sounds better on the MQA version on the Meridian Explorer 2. I am stunned. I had earlier heard MQA on audio shows and was not impressed but now with my Meridian Explorer 2 DAC and TIDAL I am convinced that MQA has got something.
My question for Ted and Paul are if it is possibel to program the DSD to handel MQA?
My system is
Roon - HQPlayer - (TIDAL) - PSAudio Directstream DAC - Prima Luna Dialogue Three - Parasound A 21 - Martin Logan Electromotion ESL
Paul has stated that they experimented with MQA but did not feel that it sounded as good as the DSD by itself.
I notice that you are using four pieces of software (Roon, HQplayer, Tidal and MQA), each of which affects the sound in various ways. I’m not sure how much you are hearing that’s really due to the DS Dac as opposed all these layers that are feeding into it. I don’t doubt that you hear an improvement with MQA, but I am curious: have you ever tried a more minimalist configuration, such as a high-quality player on your computer plus one of the various devices to reduce USB noise? A high-res file played that way might equal or surpass what you get with MQA.
in my experience the DS Dac playing undecoded MQA sounds still better than Brooklyn DAC with fully decoded MQA.
It’s close but DS Dac is more liquid (refined highs) and better soundstage imaging. Also DS Dac goes deeper and with more authority (dynamic).
I have tested this with roon core streaming simultaneously to bridge2 in DS Dac and to Brooklyn via usb with Regen (without regent the Brooklyn sounds mediocre in my setup). Sound leveles matched just by my ears
Interesting enough both DACs has the same sound in terms of coloration - usually different components has at least bit different signature/coloration.
magister said
Paul has stated that they experimented with MQA but did not feel that it sounded as good as the DSD by itself.
I notice that you are using four pieces of software (Roon, HQplayer, Tidal and MQA), each of which affects the sound in various ways. I’m not sure how much you are hearing that’s really due to the DS Dac as opposed all these layers that are feeding into it. I don’t doubt that you hear an improvement with MQA, but I am curious: have you ever tried a more minimalist configuration, such as a high-quality player on your computer plus one of the various devices to reduce USB noise? A high-res file played that way might equal or surpass what you get with MQA.
To play the HD (24-96) album via DS DAC I only use Roon and HQPlayer as softwares and I have also tested with just Roon. MQA is not a software it is a way to digitally store recorded music as a file.
To play the the MQA decoded album I only use the software Tidal and connect the computer to the Meridian Explorer 2 DAC.
So for both systems I only use one (or two) layer and the album still sounds better with MQA.
In my opinion Roon is a high quality player in combination with HQPlayer and Roon has a superior interface. I don’t think it can be more minimalistic than using Roon as a player. I have tried Roon without the upsampling of HQPlayer but didn’t think it was better.
I didn’t mention that I also use the “StarTech.com 4 Port USB 2.0 over LAN” solution (the equivalent to LANRover) to send the music via my network to a Singxer SU-1 USB digital interface, which is connected to my DS DAC via I2S. So I am getting absolutely no USB noise.
Upsampling in software before the DS means you are listening to the sound of that upsampler rather than the upsampler in the DS. You may prefer one over the other (and either may be right for you) but most people would contend that part of the advantage for the DS over MQA is it’s upsampling of CDs. Tho you may prefer the sound of HQPlayer at the outset I’m not terribly surprised that you like MQA compared to it. Also there’s no such thing as “absolutely no USB noise”: all connections have noise, we just pick a noise level that we find acceptable with tweaks. (And at times with different tweaks we are just picking noise with one character compared to noise with a different character.)
So far we can’t get the noise from MQA to not affect the sound of the DS in a negative way. If (and at this point probably when) MQA is allowed to run before the final DAC we may be able to let MQA fans enjoy what they like from MQA by having MQA running in the playing software or the streamer, etc. without degrading what the DS does well.
As always you are abolutely right. Of course there is no “absolutely no USB noise”. What i should have written is that I have taken steps to minimize the USB noise.
A question: Does the I2S connection also generate noise?
Another question: Is it possible to program the FPGA in the DS to accept MQA decoding?
It seems that some (Maniac) like the negative way that MQA affect the sound of the DS.
