No, despite my high end system, I don’t believe I am at the point where I would duplicate an expensive piece of gear to experience first hand the effect of burn in. Without being quite that pointed, i was getting at that I have read no comment on burn iin this forum or anywhere else for that matter, that wasn’t based on an individual auditory comparison spanning tens or even hundreds of hours. It is those which I feel have no validity. Am I now a happier listener than when I was using SONOS speakers? You bet! But that’s a huge difference in SQ compared to what I read is attributed to burn in. If I had a scale that gave weights varying by 2% with every use, I would not use it to buy gold bars. Our auditory memory over days isn’t even that good. I am sure my state of mind for listening was affected by wrestling a 55# monster out of its box (made relatively easy by a great box design) and that plus the swap out only took 50 min. That’s all I’m saying.
I was fortunate enough to borrow gear from a forum member. The extent of burn in was a surprise to me. Others have described how their PMG amps have improved over time with burn in. Maybe you will be the one to describe how/whether the S200 improves over time. If you do experience the positive effects of product burn in, the sounstage, imaging and magic will just open up, and music will sound smoother, music will just flow better. The improvements will not be subtle, and you will simply be happier knowing you made some great audio decisions.
I see nothing wrong with this statement. I also believe myself and others when they report perceived change in SQ after burn in. If there were evidence of burn in from a measurement standpoint, charts, graphs, and articles proclaiming that fact would be prevalent - they are not. This doesn’t negate the impact of burn in perception so I am not sure why a statement like this is controversial. Both things can be true; burn in evidence is lacking, reports of burn in impact are abundant.
What I have a hard time buying into are the occasional individual reports that appear to be primarily boasting of and braging about the their own unique, special, super-human aural sensitivities. It is often couched in the guise of altruistically sharing helpful details with the community but is ultimately self-serving.
That’s an interesting observation between the BHK 250 and S400, regarding the bass. That’s one of the weak areas I hear in my system with the BHK 250. It has improved immensely since having my DSD MkI DAC upgrades by APS, but there’s still room for improvement regarding tightening up the bass.
The S400 bass is more solid and has better pitch definition as well. I am guessing but I suspect the S200 has comparable bass performance and is possibly better above that. I think you would not be disappointed with either one.
Descriptors are everything. Imagine a world without descriptors. I read a review of food from a restaurant, where a review mentioned a philly cheesesteak was on fire. That descriptor gave me enough information that I knew not to go there for dinner.
I may not have made my point very well. I’ll go so far as to say that descriptors are very, very, very important. But that doesn’t mean that measurements are useless.
I don’t understand why it has to be all or nothing. The measurement fanatics discount descriptions, and it seems from your statement that you discount measurements since “descriptors are everything.” There’s enough black and white thinking out there, and I am saying that audio is a balance of science and art (objective and subjective).
Maybe “descriptors are everything” is a little too strong, but I don’t measure anything. I rely on others for that. I can only describe what I hear 
We are of a more similar opinion than we thought.
Very good points. I hope no one would say that “the S200 runs class A up to 10 watts” is a useless measurement. Many other areas are also a balance of science and art and we are trying to find the ideal blend of these. And even though we’ll likely never arrive at the ideal that’s no excuse not to try, at least that’s what I believe today.
The new PMG S200 was installed yesterday afternoon and I’ve had a day now to build some impressions. In a word, it is spectacular in my system. Some might dismiss this as confirmation bias, but I’ve had plenty of hard truths to say about previous and current equipment I’ve owned.
But component matching is absolutely essential and it’s not easy or possible to determine in advance what components will match and what components will sonically destroy the system. I’ve learned some hard lessons recently. After purchasing a pair of B&W 804 D4 floor standing speakers about two years ago, I began to experience sonic destruction that forced me to experiment with different upstream components.
I now have all of these components to mix and match with:
- Black Ice Audio F35 V2 integrated vacuum tube amp
- Schiit Byggy (Singular) DAC
- Naim NAP200 amp
- Naim NAC122X preamp
- Audial S5b DAC with Philips TDA1541 DAC chip
- Ali Express clone of a Pass Labs preamp with two XLR and two RCA inputs
- HiFi Rose RS130 Streamer (with lossless music stored on internal SSD)
- PS Audio Stellar Phono preamp (Darren Myers)
- PS Audio DirectStream DAC Mk2
- PS Audio BHK Signature Preamp
- PS Audio PerfectWave SACD Transport
- PS Audio PMG S200 amp
Here are the mixes that work like magic with the PMG S200:
- HiFi Rose Streamer >> DirectStream DAC Mk2 >> Ali Express Pass Labs clone preamp >> PMG S200
- HiFi Rose Streamer >> Schiit Byggy DAC >> Ali Express Pass Labs clone preamp >> PMG S200
- Stellar Phono Preamp >> Ali Express Pass Labs clone preamp >> PMG S200
- PS Audio SACD Transport >> DirectStream DAC Mk2 >> Ali Express preamp >> PMG S200
- This SACD Transport is simply outstanding (again, in my system)
Here are some mixes that fail sonically. Remember, these are specific to my system:
- Inserting PS Audio BHK Signature Preamp into the chain
- Inserting the Audial S5b into the chain (Audial S5b works superbly with the Naim system)
I expect to replace the BHK Signature Preamp with the PMG Pre because the Ali Express clone was always meant for experimentation. It has some functional limitations and a power-on glitch that I have to work around every time.
In the mixes where the PMG S200 shines, it shines across every describable category. It outdoes the Black Ice vacuum tube amp (with KT88 tubes) and outdoes the Naim system. The Black Ice system is glorious with Schiit Singular (Byggy) DAC, but the PMG S200 clearly exceeds it in clarity, imaging, focus, dynamics, etc.
Despite these characteristics, the PMG S200 is not analytical, but highly musical. If a system (and it takes a system) effortlessly brings a smile to my face and a sense of awe while listening, it passes the ultimate test. It’s been said that human emotions are an “AI Summarization” of tons of technical minutiae that our brains process subconsciously. Rather than overwhelm us with those raw “computations”, the brain summarizes everything into an emotional response.
That emotional response, for me, is the effortless smile.
I am interested in the S200 to drive my mid and treble. I currently use BHK250s for the mid and treble. If I mute the bass amps so that the only draw on the P10 that is variable is BHK250 amps then my P10 power output fluctuates by at most around 35 wats. I am considering trying an S200 in place of a BHK250 to see whether on loud music the draw fluctuates - my understanding is that if the draw remains static (with all bass and the other BHK250 muted) then it’s reasonable to assume that the S200 is remaining in Class A.
I can tell I am now in a different listening mode than right after I hooked up the S200. I sense a more defined sound stage meaning that individual instruments seem more defined in a specific space.
Word of advice to upgraders:
| Fuses | No user serviceable fuses |
|---|
So would the S200 be considered the replacement for the BHK 250, even though it has less than half the wattage? Or is the S400 the logical replacement?
Considering my current speakers are 93 db 4 ohm, the S200 should supply plenty of power.
But replacement speakers down the road could possibly require more power, so it may be wiser to go with the S400.
So now 10+ hours into listening to my system with the S200. I am please with the major notable difference being in a better sound stage. And so I cry uncle! There indeed is burn in BUT I attribute it not to the new amp molding its copper traces on the boards but to me, the listener. I am indeed in a quite different listening mode now that I am back to listening to the music rather than trying to perceive what subtle improvements I could use to justify the expense. Really quite different mind set, perhaps aided by my boxing up the M700 mono blocks for their journey home to CO.
I hope Chris B will way in on this but here is my take. The S200 has more than enough max power to drive just about anything reasonable. Why to we chase after high power amps? Headroom, the theory being that the further we are from max output demand, the better the amp will behave. But that really comes down to the design of the amp. As Paul frequently says, we are listening to the power supply, the function of the rest of the circuit is “simply” to modulate that supply with the undulations of the music. The PMG amps have a radically different power supply than what PS Audio has used in the past. Sure wish I could find Chris B.'s comment on the S200 being the sweet spot but as I recall it was in relation to driving the FR20’s. If its good enough for the guy that poured his heart and soul into the FR series, its good enough for me.
You funny!!
Thanks, that helps a lot.
JKWAustin, is this the Chris comment you were looking for?
"i am afraid that the S400 is going to sell the most of any of the products but is actually has most compromises of the four designs (trying to pack in twice as much “stuff” in the same chassis and heatsink). It really should be the one we sell the least of but we have kind of trained people that they need more power then they actually do by making our best sounding amps the more/most powerful ones in the past.
My personal advice - though just an opinion like anyone else’s - is that you will be 100% happy with an S200 and, if you ever move to a large space and need to drive more demanding speakers, it will likely still be great but you can also choose trade it in on a pair of monos down the road."
This is from the “Upcoming PMG signature amp” thread and is post 253 (or 254) from June 26.
I asked Chris prior to this post if the S200 was a good choice for the FR20 I have and he said yes. I have a small room and usually don’t listen loud. Makes sense to me. I will eventually get it to replace my BHK250.
And you have the perfect preamp to go with the S200 when you get the amp. I can even predict just when you might get the amp, but will keep that quiet, as there is a chance I could be tempted at the same time as well 