Try a lowly Windows 10 laptop instead of Melco…to test. Windows talks to the SPDIF converter with std usb 2.0 audio. Any way you can query the Melco’s usb status?
Hi Ted !
Would this help with a Mac Mini as well?
Hi Dmance,
Great suggestion. I tried playing music from my MacBook Pro using iTune. It worked! So the issue resides somewhere with my Melco N1A. But where? I will try ask Melco for help. In the meantime, any suggestion? Thanks.
I just wanted to point out that the only units that can do galvanic isolation are usb over ethernet. Such as the Lanrover/Icron. Which incidentally is the single largest improvement that can be brought about usb. It simply addresses the noise floor which is bad. Usb is great for transferring data but not so suited to high end audio due to noise inherent in the interface. Companies try to address this but outside of getting a good DAC these things do little and can very well damage the sound. A good DAC, case in point the DS will reject this jitter. Hence this thread. This is simply due to the design of any category cable. they are all galvanically isolated. However working with latest version of Windows 10 is iffy. It may or may not. The intona, Uptone, W4s and anything that deals strictly with usb is not isolated period. The reason is that these devices can safely supply power and lift the ground in the cable. If you go lift the ground on the shield/shell almost any usb device including the DS is highly unlikely to operate at that point. Since it determines what is being plugged/unplugged etc in the enumerator. Although of course usb to toslink will achieve this as well.
Furthermore as has been discussed above these things take issue with the likes of Melco and Aurender but not PC/Mac usually. They address the bus in a different manner. The computers are most likely doing at a higher level. I mean as far as the code. Programming the USB Xmos is different than how actual computer works.
That leads me to: forget music servers. A purpose built PC can be purchased or built and running Jriver or Foobar does so much more and can sound much better as well with for instance Sotm pci to usb. Plus you can have much more storage for much less money and the OS on SSD. To me it is a no brainer. I am not typing this on one of my music PC’s, nor do I game on them. If you go do that you just ruined it. These are music duty only. Plus good luck streaming a url on those things. Have to setup client/server huge pain.
Of course ymmv but these are the lessons I felt I have learned regarding this matter.
The good news is that none of this matters. To get the best sound out of a high quality DAC including the DS all you need is a Belkin gold usb cable. Right from the motherboard controller/port to the DS. Yes, Belkin gold. I agree with TAS only one cable is better. The AQ Diamond. It is $800 a meter vs. $6 a meter. Hardly worth the difference as it is not that big. The good DACS do all the heavy lifting, not the cable.
Per the title of this thread I conclude that this stuff is a waste if you invested in a good DAC such as the DS. I had a large investment in “purifiers”. LPS etc. before I got the DS. I had even better DACS already at that point but not in this room. So already having it I feel compelled to put it to use even if it is degrading the sound. Trust me on this. I spent like 15 hours straight a/b all of this on DS and things way higher up the food chain as well. Where it makes a difference is on cheap poorly designed DAC’s. Just spend the money where you should and not on these band aids. Speaking solely of the DS, all this stuff shall do is detract IMO.
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Nice try, but too many tired falsehoods in all those paragraphs.
Please try this: use the bit perfect files provided by Ted Smith with ANY of your chain suggestions. ALL will result in the bit-perfect notification from DS. Do you know that this means that all chains deliver music perfectly?? So please stop with the BS that jitter or source or operating system or servers or usb or ethernet or toslink make any difference to the digital delivery being intact. The DAC gets the digital bits with all those!!!
Yet, the chains you describe all do sound different. Same bits, different sound.
So WTF is going on? It’s high frequency analog noise from the source thru conductive cable affecting how the DAC converts the perfect bits to analog waveform.
This noise is insidious. After reading a hundred posts like yours and ive tried everything, I’ve decided the noise gets past usb/ethernet galvanic isolators and all the tweaks …except for TOSLINK which, clearly, does not allow the passage of RF noise.
I don’t doubt that other sufficiently isolated chains may come close …but for me, a $75 optical link gets me perfection. And the DS supports 24/192 thru TOSLINK!
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You just berated me for saying the same exact thing you did? You just said it In less words. Looks like we are on the same page. What I was saying is that regardless of anything else these things are not in fact Galvanically isolated unless they are Toslink as you also state. The simple truth is, as I said if you defeat the shield/shell grounding almost no usb device including the DS will operate. So you tell me how they are isolated then if they are clearly closing a circuit? I am not the one lying. All these companies that sell “usb purifiers” are. It could be done with Ethernet as well as PSA did but as of now that does not always work anymore. I mean as in not function whatsoever. So they discontinued it.
We agree that toslink is the only true answer and exactly why bit perfect sounds different. All these devices are not lying that they have lifted the ground rail in the cable. However they have not lifted the ground on the shield/shell. You pretty much cannot and still meet the protocol and have it work. So I was just pointing out that everyone of these companies that make these things kind of fibbed. It is not true medical grade insulation. We are in full agreement that toslink is the only viable answer.
However, I say forget usb! Take toslink right from your machine to your DAC! Best thing to do. What do you need usb in the mix for? No point. The only thing with it is the limiting factor of the bandwidth. If you are good with what it is capable of then it is indeed the quietest format. The noise floor is so far below our hearing. Usb is not, which is why the bit perfect file sounds different on different equipment. Just as you say. Toslink is most likely as of now the superior format for this. However I would just use straight toslink and not start mixing formats.
There is no BS from me. I just said the same exact thing you did. How can you accuse me by agreeing with me lol. It was about if they were in fact truly providing Galvanic isolation. Nothing else! To that effect, no it is not true because it is an impossibility due to the nature of the format. Almost no usb device would work if you cut the shield.
The only situation is if you feel you must have higher bit rates. In that case you are stuk with usb here and al the noise and other limitations. Usb is not even a reliable protocol but that is a different textbook. They could have easily gone way higher on ethernet but I guess only they do not know why they did not. Toslink is going to be the quietest connection and then Ethernet here. USB is a very distant third. Will these things sometimes perhaps make it sound better to us? Perhaps so but it is just a band aide for a festering wound. USB is really not ideal at all. I am pretty sure we are going to agree on that as well since you are already using toslink. I would personally just forgo the usb altogether.
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Without going into things point by point:
All of the formats accepted by the DS are reliable in practice - if the bitperfect test fails one should suspect their settings on the source side first and possibly their cables second, but it’s not because of format design, transport protocol, etc. (Similarly, most CDs rip just fine which indicates that bit errors on a CD aren’t usually the cause of uniform sound quality problems with CDs.)
Most advice about how things sound is based on assumptions about jitter, but as has been correctly pointed out, at least in the DS’s case sound quality differences are usually noise related. That noise can come from the source, from RF interfearance (both the obvious ways and via groundloops), but it also works the other way around: tho any interconnect is a receiver, it’s also a transmitter.
Each input to the DS is the best one for some set of people out there. It’s not constructive to pan any particular input based only on personal experience or random internet postings (even many of the “measurements” out there aren’t really what’s going on.) Most people don’t do adequately controlled experiments when comparing one input to another (even tho many of them are trying to.)
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The questions how do you go all toslink from a Mac Mini to a PSA DAC?
Please bear with me. I do not understand this like you do.
You say the issue with the DS and others is going to be noise. I am pretty sure that is what I tried to express in my limited knowledge of the subject. You mention cables acting as antennae’s. I believe the noise may also originate in receivers and transmitters of a “protocol”, although having nothing to do with the actual methodology of the protocol itself. Just the hardware used to send and receive the line transmission. However I would agree it is not inherently the protocol, but the implementation of such. Now, take usb. It is the nosiest, no? The reason for the Lanrover and every similar device on the market today. You do not see these types of devices for AES3 for instance. Furthermore, by it’s very nature the toslink cable itself cannot possibly pickup EMI/RFI? Am I correct about this general assumption or have no idea what I am speaking of? I agree, usb is suited to the task but it probably would not be my first choice for SQ. I gather it is used due to the available bandwidth today’s DAC’s can receive. In fact some are already moving to usb3.0-3.1. Still, my understanding is that save for the transceiver stages the cable itself is the best antennae? I am seriously not being smart. This is just my understanding of the subject. If I am completely incorrect you are more than welcome to set me straight!
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I am trying to get people to not make blanket statements (in general, but in this case about which inputs are “best” or “worst”.) Pick an input you like (for whatever reason) and you can make it work well. I prefer USB for bandwidth reasons and that these days USB is almost universally available for potential sources. I prefer TOSLink when I’m doing a demo or test and am not familiar with the rest of the system.
Some noise is certainly a part of any connection method. TOSLink avoids electronic noise, but isn’t great for timing noise (but that’s not as much of a problem for the DS.) USB has multiple noise opportunities, but they often don’t need heroic efforts to ameliorate. Some systems have very few problems at all with USB noise… For example the LANRover doesn’t seem to make a difference in my system, but a similar device with an optical connection instead of an ethernet connection does help (a little.) The Corning 3.Optical cable helps some systems some (and lets you have a very long USB connection.) I often recommend a well powered USB hub right next to the DAC as the only “outgoing” hub connection. By well powered I mean with a quiet supply, some wall warts aren’t so bad, others are horrible. I wouldn’t spend hundreds of dollars on a great supply, but maybe tens.
There certainly are all manner of devices for S/PDIF and AES/EBU to control noise, jitter, etc. Heck AES/EBU is a noise control of the otherwise very similar S/PDIF 
Some forms of noise aren’t directly related to the specific connection at all, but instead are generated by the source and/or groundloops. A lot of this noise can be essentially the same for any electrical connection shielded or not.
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I understand, MR. Smith. My apologies for making such a big deal of it. You are in fact right as usual about these things. My dirty secret is I am using usb with several thousand dollars worth of cables and purifiers. I mentioned I got it for a DAC that really struggled. Now hate to put it to waste. The joke is that the Belkin Gold usb cable right from the motherboards port into the DS sounds better. A lot of this stuff can actually introduce noise/problems. One DAC here will not even connect on these purifiers. None of them. For the record the Belkin Gold is $10 and it might just be the best cable there is. No, I feel compelled to use everything on hand and make it sound worse. I am just saying you know what you are talking about obviously. It is your career after all. I am sorry I drove home the pointless with such effort. I too prefer usb solely because of the bandwidth. The DS does not have a problem with it to begin with like some others.
It is interesting you mention a usb hub, probably with a cheap LPS. Since this is exactly what all of these $$$ “purifiers” are to begin with. They may spec a better clock crystal or something but in the case of the DS it is not really even noticeable. It was others that got me started on toslink. Not blaming anyone. It honestly works fine to me. I have a Audiophile hub in the chain and there is a SSD plugged into it that stores music in WAV. This actually may surpass my very high end CD transport. So it is in fact fine. Fine for everyone, under all circumstances? No clue but it works for me.
My original point was just that you cannot truly have galvanic isolation on a usb>usb connection. You can lift the ground wire which may help a lot. If you defeat the shield/shell almost no devices including the DS will connect. YMMV I guess. That is where this all started. I was just pointing that particular thing out. As far as the likes of Intona I am not sure what it does(it is currently in use here) but I doubt it lifts the shield. In which case it is not truly electrically isolated. For instance the standard is in a Hospital is a patient could get shocked. Unless they are using opto coupler/diode or something. Even then I am not aware of any way you can lift the shield and have it work. Which quite frankly is fine and does not even matter! If I had any brains I would get all of this out of here and just use the Belkin cable. It most certainly sounds good enough to me. All this other stuff is causing timing errors go figure.
Anyways, I apologize that I made a big deal out of nothing. TBH, it is not that important to me. I stop at bit perfect. It is interesting all the things we think about until you introduce real science into the matter!
Sure you can. Optical isolation of USB, as Ted himself mentioned here:
You should have the most downstream unit’s PSU properly isolated to fully block ground / leakage current loops.
I was speaking solely of isolation from usb>usb. Most of the companies claiming this are not disclosing that the shield is intact.
Only one company makes a 480mbps opto coupler. It is difficult to obtain. Only one other company employs this in a usb isolator. 1.1 there are Plenty. I think the Intona is 1.1. The Igalvanic is not 3.1 because the parts do not exist. They are calling the outside conductors as lifted not the shield. So as usual with them snake oil. I had mentioned this as well. It is available but scarce. I was complaining that many of these companies are not disclosing the whole truth about their product. The shield is still intact. So not isolated.
The easy way to do it is $25 DAC and convert USB to toslink. The Lanrover/Icron was a novel and great approach to this issue but unfortunately no longer works on many Windows machines after updating. I guess the issue is the speed. Plenty of 1.1 devices out there. The reason I(jokingly) say usb is flawed for this purpose is due to the sheer amount of devices and approaches to purify it. Best to go from mobo to DAC with good cable.
If there is noise MR. Smith said the same thing I had long ago. Use a good hub like the Startech with the usb ‘b’ connector. Second hand $10 there are radioshack wallwart linear regulated 800ma selectable voltage units that sweep good to 10mhz, good ripple, low noise. They are actually great if you pick one up for $10. If anyone really wants to get this stuff I can provide the part #’s. Since it is pretty much the Regen going to cost you $25 total. The hub has a good clock chip in it too.
You can go further and use an modified AQ Jitterbug to lift the +5V and ground conductor ahead of it. If you do have noise this is fine. I was just pointing out most of this stuff is not galvanically isolated and quite frankly that is not the Holy grail anyhow IMO. However if everyone would just use the Belkin gold cable they may find that they encounter a non existent noise floor right there.
Honestly though if everything else is right all the inputs should sound about the same. I mean on the DS or hopefully anything above it too since we are not talking about cheap stuff now. The single biggest thing I am aware of is that the Xmos board should be self powered and not rely on the +5V. Or like the DS use it to establish communication, handshake and then dissipate the residual with a resistor. I have had many DAC’s not connect with Streamlength drivers but the DS has never failed to in the short time I have had it. Do not try to mess with that driver or you may break whatever DAC is using it. -Todd
For most Macs with headphone jacks the jack does double duty as a Toslink connector. You need a Toslink cable with the proper connector or an adapter like this one: https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-102671-Toslink-Female-Adapter/dp/B001V5HQAU/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1530642554&sr=8-5&keywords=toslink+adapter Whether that is enough to get you digital sound out over Toslink may depend on the software you are using. Also make sure your particular Mac Mini has optical out as described.
Yep, when I stumbled on Icron and the Ranger series I was impressed that they did things right, unlike 99% of all of the USB extenders I’d seen before that. I recommended them to PS Audio for a USB isolator. Unfortunately they muffed the ASIC implementation that they did for PS Audio. It was unfortunate for all involved but these things happen… I still like their products.
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Yes, check the link I posted again… That’s optical isolation of USB… fiber cable between the boxes… That’s as perfect isolation of USB as you can get.
As I mentioned though, you should take care with the downstream PSU.
Thsnks Ted. Their newer models haven’t fixed this?
Could you nudge Paul to discuss a LANRover 2.0 with them? Single USB output, 5Vdc powered, single mode fiber cable between the 2 boxes?
Thank you !
I will give it a try.
I don’t think they used the ASIC in any other products, but I’m speculating. I have no reason to doubt the descriptions or function of any of the products on their web site.
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