Ethernet Cables and Sound

QED has some OK stuff based on measure but…you need to show the UGLY, too. Cable phase is lowest at 25 KHz as phase goes to resistive (pure resistor is zero phase) as frequency goes up. RF frequency coaxial cables terminate into a resistor on the NIC card to prove the point.

Cable gets reactive as frequency goes down below. At 20 Hz it is 45 degrees. My data agrees with theirs, but I feel we need to see the entire sweep, not just the “best” spot.

Yes, low PHASE is correlated with inductance at 25 KHz, but it doesn’t stay in the 5-10 degree value for long as frequency drops.

If you look at the recent paper in PS Audio’s COPPER, I show what’s happening. I have that paper if you like. Data is good and ALL the data is better.

Best,
Galen

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Isn’t there a rule that once Supertramp is mentioned a thread has to be locked down?

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Oh, sorry, I didn’t know about the Supertramp thing.

Best,
Galen

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So many choices with the Iconoclast RCA cables. Is it better to go with the 1x1 using OFE or the 1x4 with TPC? They’re about the same amount of money.

If it is analog, the 1x4 is optimized best for that. The 1x4 (four 30 AWG wires in the conductor) is a nice improvement over the GEN 1 design for analog signals. The better OFE copper in the 1x1 (one 25 AWG conductor) design isn’t going to sound as good as the 1x4 in TPC as the Vp linearity and coherence improvements really show up in the analog optimized design. And yes, the TPC 1x4 is cheaper than the 1x1 OFE. Try them out and see!

I designed the GEN 1 XLR @ AES/EBU impedance for the BAV XLR design, as the pro’s use digital audio. The RCA was set-up to match the GEN 1 XLR in reactive properties (L and C) so the sound quality is matched using the gen 1 RCA and XLR for analog audio. This also matches the higher impedance.

The impedance when using the RCA or XLR analog isn’t as critical as digital so the GEN II 1x4 and 4x4 can be optimized for audio frequencies and not worry about AES/EBU. Thus the GEN II RCA and XLR are analog only optimized designs.

OK but what about RCA 75-ohm SPDIF? For that we recommend using an optimize digital cable, 1694A. People have used the GEN 1 RCA for SPDIF with a solid copper signal wire (DO NOT use the GEN II for digital) and reported good results. But it isn’t the right impedance for 75-ohm SPDIF because GEN 1 RCA is matched to the AES/EBU 115-ohm +/- 15 OHM standard the XLR needed for the pro market.

Out of the ICONOCLAST project, the trickle down product to the wider market is the BAV XLR AES/EBU design. The pro’s don’t use RCA or speaker cables (XLR input powered speakers).

SUMMARY
ANALOG - use the 1x4 GEN II RCA
SPDIF DIGITAL - use the 1694A RCA.

Best,
Galen

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Oops! Yes, this is for analog from a DAC to my home theater amplifier. The amp doesn’t have XLR inputs. Thanks for all the great information. I’ll give the GEN II RCA’s a try!

I decided to go with the Gen II, 1x4 in OFE. Galen, your input and participation gave me the confidence to spend the extra. You are amazing!

I went with 5 feet based on the comment from the other person who said that the extra length helped.

And so the package landed from the other side of the world containing some blue cables,but no jeans that I can tell. I´ve been listening now for some time these new cat6 UTP cables and first impressions are clear. At first I plugged in 3 footer from EtherRegen B side to Innuos Zen mk3. I have tried all kinds of cat cables there before and was surprised to hear the best sound so far,no doubt about it. After getting a little used to this new level of realism which reminded me of installing Iconoclast UPOCC xlr and speaker cables to my system,it was time to go from router to ER 25 foot length.
And what do you know,same improvement again.

I am a little surprised now because I have tried so many cat cables before and none could come to this. Inakustik cat6 or 7 closest but still not quite there. This being first impressions now after a few hours of playing.

( I still love my Inakustik USB ) :innocent: :joy:

Anyone here compared the Inakustic Ref Ethernet cable to the Sablon? Which one did you prefer and why?

A switch with a really upgraded clock can help, I’ll never buy meters of expensive ethernet cable such as AQ. Money can be better spent. OFC S/STP cat 6a or cat7 would do the job.

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I have not heard latest Sablon 2020 that many seems to favor on other forums,but had their earlier Panatela Reserva model and Inakustik 6 / 7. Sablon was very smooth and eerie sounding but lacked sparkle and resolution compared to Inakustik. But then nothing sounded as good and real as BJC cat6 utp does…be cheap, go for Blue.

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I was wondering if you were still loving the BJC Cat 6. I seemed to have lost y short run to swap back in both locations versus the Inakustik Referenz. I should revisit since going Bi-Wire on my speakers to see if the grunge I had before is still there.

Oh yes definitely. Tried all kinds of things as I always like to play back and forth :slight_smile: going back to Inakustik before ER and after ,going straight from router to streamer etc. BJC always better and while straight run sounds pretty nice too, it´s when going through ER plus ocxo clock and extras…that is just so much better. So even best sounding/measuring cable can be bettered with reclocking and lower phase noise. A lot.

Didn´t believe in $10 cat cable you know,I had other cat6 quite many before too and they sucked :slight_smile: I even ordered Ghent made BJC cables at some point because I thought they would be better due more expensive connectors etc…well they didn´t sound good at all. Then I ditched idea of even trying originals,lol.

Luckily I tried the real thing eventually :sunglasses: They are staying as all the cables that say Icono…just more to come.

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A question : I’d like to use the same switch for my audio/video system the my audio system (streamer).

I hope my upgrading clock is not a poor one:
Accuracy: +/- 1ppm
Measured Jitter less than 0.5PSec (Femtosecond)
Stable clock output to 8 decimal places +/- 3 digits
Comprehensive Vref circuit
Input noise filter circuit
On board custom SPower ‘D’ Discrete low noise regulation
Optimised circuit layout
Super low ESR high ripple Oscon Polymer SVP decoupling capacitors
Large uF capacitance
High quality PPS decoupling capacitors
High Precision oscillator
Underside ground plane shield
High grade copper pcb
Gold plated contacts

c4-mk1-low-jitter-clock-frequency-mhz-100.00-1569-p

How long can be the ethernet cable from the switch to the streamer before sound issues are back ?
The very useful answer I was given buy a specialist : “The shorter the better”
my answer is to him “no ethernet cable almost no jitter” lol

This question is quite important for me. Thanx

Unfortunately anyone giving you an exact length will be making it up.

Your best option is to try various lengths and return the ones that don’t sound good.

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There are tremendous cables from UK, not only Chord of QED. For the same price, much better than AQ.

Headphone cables are a very USA think.

Thanx, I’m not asking for an exact length but an approximation : 5m, 10m, 20m, more ?

I’m wondering specially thinking to the thousand of miles between the server and the reveiver.

I think @Paul had made a great video about it but I can’t find it nor remember his opinion

I’ve noticed that for the range of 48K AQ the standard sizes or from 0.6m to 12m. So my guess is that 8-10 meters wouldn’t be an issue

Hello everybody,

I’ve been reading here so far and have decided to contribute my 2cents here.

For a long time I did not believe in sound changes through ethernet cables or switches, until unfortunately I made the experience that I was wrong.

And that is making me sick, because I am an analytical person with software development background and need an explanation for everything.

I can absolutely understand what @rower30 explained, but there are still differences in the sound due to the ethernet cables.

In my setup unshielded stripped 2 x 2 cable for 100BaseT sounds best.
I read this in a thread in a German forum and just tried it out for fun - actually to be confirmed that bits are bits. Unfortunately I was disappointed and it really did sound better.

The cable consists of two loose AWG23 twisted pairs that I took out of an horizontal CAT6 cable without any sleeve or shielding.
At first I thought that it was due to the fact that the twisted pairs have a larger distance (they are loosely in the air). So I got 1 x 2 twisted pair cable with 100 ohms and shielding. This is available as a SPE - Single Pair Ethernet Standard, which is currently being introduced in the automotive industry. A cable made up of two strands of this cable didn’t sound as good as the completely unshielded one.

So I kept looking. I got myself a 1 x 2 Gore 100Ohm twisted pair cable with ePTFE dielctricum and shielding and built a cable from it. This sounds better than the Single Pair Ethernet, but still not as good as the completely unshielded one.

So, as @rower30 reports, the shielding has not only positive effects. If I naively imagine that, the ethernet signal that wanders around via reflections within the shielding is definitely more harmful than normal electromagnetic radiation in a normal household.

In the meantime I have also achieved sound improvements through intermediary transformers that derive interference via GND.

But where do the sound differences come from?
I have the following theory, which I cannot yet substantiate. I am about to buy a high performance oscilloscope to check this out. This whole speculation is just as upsetting to me as to @rower30 .

Here is my theory:
I am also firmly convinced that sound changes can only be made when converting from D to A in the DAC.
Ethernet is a differential signal. So the difference between the two voltages of a twisted pair should always be zero.
However, if the sum is not zero, the signal cannot be completely eliminated. The residual voltage can then negatively affect the clock in the end device during conversion in the DAC or also affect the signal to be converted.

This theory is also strengthened by the experience that ethernet isolators, which realize a symmetrization of the signal (time and voltage, but not completely), have a positive effect on the sound.

I can’t understand the whole thing about ethernet jitter. With this I have never had any problems with measurements in the end device even with cheap network switches. A high-quality clock in a network switch can at most have an effect on sound through better voltage symmetry, but not because this avoids jitter in ethernet transmission - that’s nonsense.

I am looking forward to your opinion.

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Welcome, @TomJ !