I suspect you’re right that few drummers would make adjustments based on being “mic’d,” but I still wonder about Shelly Manne. I decided last night to compare the vinyl pressing of “Live at the Blackhawk, Vol 1” to the release on High Definition Tape Transfers. I didn’t find the vinyl quite as good from a sound standpoint, but there’s just something more “historically accurate” about the viny that makes me want to go back and listen againl. But I reacted the same way to the vinyl in feeling that Manne plays at least aware that this is going on a record. There was one track (like my mind) where I said to myself, “That’s the best sounding cymbals I’ve ever heard” and because of my mind, I can’t remember now which track.
I just think all that you hear is the result of the engineer and his mic placement. Just my take. This was properly set up to capture what Manne was putting down.
Hey Smokey Joe, I listened to this night before last. At first I didn’t hear anything particularly notable about the drum sounds, but then by the time I got to “I’m Coming Out” (which made me wonder a little about her sexuality), I was re-introduced to how powerful the drums are in that cut. Then listening further, I realized the drums are mixed entirely different for each track, to fit properly into the message of each track. “My Piano” might be my favorite as far as percussion sounds. And I was taken back to about when that album came out, in my high school bandroom’s percussion closet when I heard the Guiro playing in “Now that You’re Gone.”
I’ll have to give the rest of that album a listen and see if I can pick out the differences in the drum mix. First time I’ve heard of a Guiro, lol.
Oh, I bet you’ve HEARD a Guiro, you just didn’t know what it was or looked like. Back when I was a performing musician, we called it a gourd and clapper, but I Googled that and maybe it was a local term because I couldn’t find it. Which reminds me (ADD moment) of a fellow trumpeter in college and we were in rehearsal for the pit band for a performance of the musical Guys & Dolls. He leaned over and sang “If I were a bell, I’d have the clapper.” Of course I got the evil eye from the director when I couldn’t stop laughing to play.
Is that the instrument heard in the left channel at 0:39 on My Rival by Steely Dan?
I’ve listened to Kay Starr for decades, her work with the Jack Teagarden Orchestra mostly. I’m a huge Teagarden fan, that’s where I discovered her. Interesting singer.
In photos she sometimes reminds me of my Mom. And my Mom’s sister was named “Kay.”
I’m sure I have but I have never heard the name. I imagine it’s hard to play a trumpet while laughing 
No, that’s an instrument with a much more modern name - the vibra-slap. It has a flexible wire setup, where the player slaps the top ball and its vibration causes a little “box” of beads to rattle. Hopefully this picture will do it for you.
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Hey Ionson - I think you have me confused with the JLawry talking about Kay Starr in the HDTT thread. But I know that JLawry well enough to say he agrees that Jack Teagarden is a not-nearly-enough-recognized name and that he had no idea Kay Starr sang with his band. But JLawry did read where Billie Holiday once said that Kay Starr is the only white woman who could sing the blues. Maybe Kay Starr would have said Billie Holiday was the first black woman to be able to do justice to a song like “Pennies from Heaven” (which probably isn’t true, but not far from it).
I guess I did misplace the post. . . if I did indeed answer to the same person. . . or maybe a different one. 
Starr had a lot of experience fronting bands before she even recorded. . . she brought a lot to the microphone. I don’t know that I agree entirely with Billie. . . I mean . . . Ella Mae Morse for one is another white woman who could sing the blues. (Although perhaps the Billie quote is from before Ella Mae was recording). But I’m glad you mentioned Kay Starr.
Yeah, I was just jerkin’ yer chain about the wrong post. I wonder why Kay Starr wasn’t more popular? Maybe it WAS because she had a kind of bluesy voice, even when singing standards. But I wonder if Billie Holiday was the first truly jazz singer to move into working with standards? I know she was influenced by some other singers before her, but there was just something different about the way she sang those things - and I think Benny Goodman was particularly aware of it.
Billie was different from the start. She was influenced by Louis in many ways, and in many ways just had her own way, and she pioneered the use of a microphone and was very influential in that manner. The way I hear it an important part of her art was her sense of swing. . .she was distinctive in that manner and that was a large part of her appeal to musicians and fans.
Many of the songs that Billie sang in her early career just weren’t standards even though some became standards in the years to come. . . in part because she and others were singing them. When jazz singers singing standards (or songs that became standards) became in vogue. . . it was almost like spontaneous combustion, so many were doing them that “who was first” was hard to ascertain.
I knew you had your tongue in cheek with the two personas.
So I was thinking over the weekend, “I guess we can let this Drums topic expire,” then I heard two recordings that I think for very different reasons, deserve drum mention. When I visited my brother in California over the holidays, he gave me one amazing deal on some of the LPs he hasn’t sold on eBay (he sold all his analog sources a few years ago). One of the albums I got was from the Swedish “Jazz at the Pawnshop” series. I had heard the two with that title, but I believe this is the first time I’ve heard the third one (1976) “Good Vibes” (Not on Qobuz / Apple Music, featuring vibraphonist Lars Estrand. As with the other JATP recordings, this immerses you very audiophilically (is that a word?) in this Stockholm jazz club - a beautiful balance between feeling live, but hearing everything possible from the music. They even manage to not have the din of talking and clinking glasses in the background interfere with the audio quality. The reason I mention it here is because I found the drum sounds to be remarkably authentic and present. It’s funny, on the back of the album jacket, the engineer Bert Palmecranz says that this album officially converted him from studio to live recording, “I had had enough of studio technology and its galloping multi-sound, with more microphones than instruments…” Hate to tell you Gert, but I think I counted at least 10 mikes in this recording, double the number of instruments - 2 on piano, 2 on vibes, 1 on bass, 1 on sax, at least 4 on drums - unless you count “drums” as one instrument. There are a few drum solos, which allow the authentic capture of drums to come through. I wish they hadn’t done so much “fader riding” where anyone other than the soloist is pulled way back in the mix, so I could hear more of the drums as part of the general ensemble. I also think the general level of musicianship is better on this album.
The other album I listened to, also in the jazz vein, was 2020’s “We’ve Just Begun” (Qobuz) / Apple Music) featuring Sinne Eeg (vocalist) with the Danish Radio Big Band. Not sure we’ve talked about it in this topic, but I really love how drums can sound in a large jazz ensemble, especially when it’s a drummer who really “pushes” the band. I’m not a huge fan of Buddy Rich, but I do appreciate his ability to drive bands to really cook. Up until this re-listening to the Sinne Eeg record, I would probably have said my favorite big band drum sounds are with the many great recordings by Gordon Goodwin’s Big Phat Band. Check out the drums on “Cut ‘n’ Run” and “The Buddy Complex” (dedicated to Buddy Rich). But there’s something not quite so “hyped” in the Danish Radio Big Band recording. The arrangement of “My Favorite Things” (which has nothing to do with Christmas except maybe snowflakes on your nose and eyelashes), is done in a fascinating arrangement with very clear, but perfectly integrated drums.
This has maybe nothing to do with recording quality (although I think it’s just fine), but when you mention a big band drummer “pushing a band,” I am reminded of the great Louis Bellson on the track “In a Mellowtone” from the CD “Digital Duke” (1987).
That 4/4 shuffle he does in the opening piano trio section really gets it done. Never mind the rest.
Among my favorite big band drummers are Franky Dunlop driving the Maynard Ferguson Orchestra, Sonny Payne driving the Count Basie Orchestra (both during their bands’ Roulette years, and those are excellently recorded) and Sam Woodyard driving the Duke Ellington Orchestra.
Sonny Payne never missed an appropriate accent/punctuation. And to see him in person is a show unto itself.
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Those are great examples! Not only the drummers, but the bands that NEEDED a driving drummer to kick their butts. I also thought of Gene Krupa. Of course his work with Benny Goodman on “Sing Sing Sing” is classic. I also found a great YouTube video of him on the 1967 “Dial M For Music” TV broadcast playing “Big Noise from Winnetka”, the musicians included Eddie Shu (tenor sax), Hal McKinney (piano), and Benny Moten (bass). Yeah Krupa (like Buddy Rich) was a bit of a showoff, but there are showoffs who can also be very musical. Too bad the audio is pretty bad. I found an album on Qobuz of Krupa leading a big band, “Drummer Man” from 1956 (Qobuz / Apple Music).
Krupa was something else. I have him mostly on appearances with the Jazz at the Philharmonic and Eddie Condon’s Town Hall Concerts, in trio and quartet format.