First, the streamed ripped Cd’d do not sound terrible, in my system they just do not sound as good as CD’s.
Second I claimed it is that case in my system, it may well be different in others.
But technically speaking, here are technical reasons that might cause the rips sound less in my system:
in my system is that my CD reads the original disk
it’s connected by a 6 ft optical cable to the DAC or 6 ft RCA to the preamp (DAC and pre amp being the same unit)
Ripped music are copies of the original disc, with processing of data when ripping
The server software performs a lot of processing to modify the data into Ethernet packages, than that data passes multiple switches interconnected by (much) longer wiring to the streamer that needs to reassemble the Ethernet packages into audio data
A lot more processing and gear on the way, than CD via optical
I tried a dedicated audio server via “audiophile” switch next to the streamer, it did not improve the sound, to the contrary, do some reason the Server on the iMac connected as described above sounded better.
Off course I can explore more expensive servers, cables and switches. But the server combo I tried was already close to the EUR 2000 MRSP price mark, which is a lot of money. While the iMac and regular switches, which for whatever reasons sounded better, needed no additional investment.
I am also not interested in managing multiple libraries on multiple servers that are positioned next to streamers in different rooms. Therefore streaming through the house to multiple rooms via long cables and switches will remain a well accepted compromise in SQ, because of the convenience.
That compromise is no problem because I have the luxury to choose to play vinyl (and stream that to multiple rooms in the house), CD’s, ripped CD’s and lossy but also good enough files from Apple Music.
Many CD’s we own are recordings of local artists, selling direct at concerts, that music is not available on streaming sites, another reason CD’s still play an important role in our way to listen to music.
What does that mean? I use dBpoweramp to rip CDs and it uses AccurateRip. That means my rips are absolutely bit perfect rips with no errors.
Optical is not an option as I upsample everything to DSD128/DSD256. Regardless, Ethernet provides a decent amount of isolation (assuming the switch is properly grounded) on its own and I am using a very low noise device (ultraRendu) to feed a Matrix SPDIF 2 which feeds I2S to my DirectStream DAC.
Ok. But the rips are exact bit perfect copies of the CD. The CD transport has to read the data from the optical drive each and every time which is more likely to generate errors than reading from an HDD or SSD.
Who cares? As long as the endpoint on Ethernet receives the data bit perfect, which it does, what is the problem?
So? As long as the noisy devices are isolated from the endpoint, which is the case, there are no issues created here.
Great. Audiophile switches are snake oil. I get the best sound using a server-Ethernet-endpoint setup.
I have one dedicated music server in my house. It runs Roon and has an internal SSD for Roon and an internal HDD for my music library. I have 5 different endpoints (Roon Zones) in my house. All can play music (different or the same) at the same time from the server and all can be controlled from a single iPad or iPhone (or android pad or phone) or by multiple devices.
You seem to think that distance is a negative with networked devices. This is not the case. Ethernet is a great way to get data to endpoints as it fast and reliable and provides electrical isolation. Using an Ethernet network is not a compromise. It is a benefit!
On balance (meaning there are some exceptions on a track/recording by track/recording basis), it has also been my experience that my files stored on my iMac (ripped and purchased) and “streamed” via Wi-Fi to a router to my DS DAC/Bridge II combo sound better than tracks spun from discs. And, my current spinner is the most sophisticated I have ever owned (i.e., the PS Audio DMP).
Interestingly, I find that using JRiver Media Center as my “rendering software” is superior to streaming the same files from my iMac via Roon with Qobuz or Tidal (I subscribe to all three services), via Qobuz “directly” (without Roon), or via Tidal directly.
Again, there are some track/recording outliers.
I really can’t account for the overall superiority of JRMC b/c I have made every effort to turn off all DSP/signal processing in JRMC and Roon, and leave the processing to the DAC.
That said, the PSA DMP is a very close second. Moreover, great SACD recordings spun on the DMP, can’t really be topped by the iMac/JRMC/Bridge II combo. (I don’t have the ability to extract and copy SACD “goodness” to my iMac.)
I agree that streaming is good and convenient. I said that in the first post. As you seem to prefer streaming and the SQ is better than CD in your system, I trust you have found a system that best matches your preferences.
I also agree that the losses in switches and Ethernet cables may be (over) emphasized to promote those expensive (audiophile) cables and switches. Although I do trust that in theory they should improve the SQ. Just that it depends on so many factors.
But, please accept the observation of others that CD quality is better in their systems than streaming. It was tested, compared and audible. I have no doubt John Darko has done that too. So, quite some music lovers out there still still like spinning CDs for the various reasons given in John’s video and stream and in the other posts.
As a graduated electrical engineer I happened to succeed in setting up metadata for ripped files (cover art accepted by all streaming devices, song titles, etc.) and servers and networks for streaming, with help of the equipment manufacturer and their software engineers and dedicated software. I very much doubt music lovers not having electrical or rather IT background are feeling comfortable doing that or even succeed in trying, they have expertise I do not have and are happy buying and playing vinyl and CDs.
I do not dispute that sales of vinyl and CDs have gone down. But some streaming providers or rather fanatic streaming enthousiasts try to declare vinyl and CDs dead. They neglect the fact that their opinion and or experience is not shared by everybody.
No a comment was made without understanding what I was saying. Companies make decisions on what they sell based on what people are buying. Of course if a company has a product and it breaks the company will do everything they can to fix it. Not one time did I say the opposite.
When I used the SGCD fed via USB from my iMac via BitPerfect icw. Apple iTunes / Music I was unable to hear a difference in SQ between CD and ripped music. I was able to hear (very slightly) an improvement when playing DSD128 (hybrid DSD master) files. But the process was so cumbersome to use DSD Master and with each new release of MacOS, the random playback of files became a worse experience. As it always played the first fraction of the next song on the record before it played the actually next song in the shuffled play list.
The SGCD electronics went bust after 1.5 years of use.
So I looked for streaming as alternative. I decided to go for NAD.
I never had the SGCD and NAD at the same time, therefor I am unable to tell what sounded better. What I can tell, is that am not disappointed at all about the NAD, not even the SQ of streaming. It sounds great and I hope it will do that for many years to come.
A pleasant thing to find out that the CD playback sounds even better.
Maybe it is the codec in BluOS that causes the difference between my CD and streaming.
But Streaming is simply so good: SQ ie. that could not be improved by expensive hardware features, gapless playback ie. no ugliness when shuffling music, the convenience of the controller etc. And the option to play CDs, cause me to be satisfied the way it is.
This debate over streaming versus CD reminds me of the old Bud Light versus Miller Lite commercials. I have seen no scientific evidence one is actually better than the other. It is a matter of personal opinion.
You are right. Personal preference is an important factor as well as our individual system and room conditions.
My wife and I do hear a clear difference and prefer the CD-sound.
To our ears it is more detailed and provides a better soundstage to our opinion. If you would hear it you might prefer it the other way.
On the beers another personal opinion:wink::
I don’t like either Bud Light nor Miller Lite. So it is a rather poor comparison as I do like the sound of both options in my system.
For me better to compare it with the difference between Shiner Bock from Shiner Texas and Sam Adams originally from Boston Massachusetts. I like both very much with Shiner Bock as preference.
My definition of audiophile is “a person who is enthusiastic about high fidelity sound reproduction”. I love music also, but it’s second fiddle.
Whether or not files sound better than Cds depends on your setup.
Going from the NAS with generic ethernet cables to a tp-link switch and another generic ethernet cable to my server, my DMP sounds better with CDs.
But when I put in better ethernet cables like the WW Platinum Ethernet 8, the sound was very close. It’s when I put in the EtherRegen with the Farad power supply that the sound became so engaging that not even the DMP can match. Yes, I did pull the EtherRegen in and out and no doubt it does make a difference.
I forgot to mention the server has to also have the Matrix with premium cables to I2s, otherwise the DMP will still sound better.
For me music is the prime goal (ie. reliability of the equipment), looks in the living environment second, hi fidelity production comes third and features a very close fourth priority. Budget is off course a given limitation.
On your system the improvements in Ethernet connections may very well cause that audible difference you describe.
On mine situation 1 sounded better than situation 2 which would have meant an extra investment on close to EUR 2000 MRSP equipment:
Situation 1:
iMac (with BluOS)
=> Cat 5e
=> Apple Airport Time Capsule
=> Cat 5e
=> wall outlet
=> Cat 6 (solely in PVC tube)
=> wall outlet
=> Cat 6a patch cable
=> TP Link switch
=> Cat 6 patch cable
=> wall outlet
=> Cat 6 (solely in PVC tube)
=> wall outlet
=> Cat 5e
=> Linksys switch
=> Cat 6a patch cable
=> NAD C 658 streamer input
What caused the difference in sound quality (more detailed, better soundstage reproduction, fuller sound) in favor of situation 1, I am not certain to explain. The iMac has more processing power, and a SSD buffer for data. Obviously also a greater distance to the streamer. Common rail noise produced by the iMac (as server) does hardly make it to the streamer.
Actually I don’t care, situation 1 sounds better to us. But CD causes a clear audible (yet subtle) improvement of sound quality. So we are confident the Silent Angel N8 does not make the difference in our particular system.
More expensive Ethernet improvement options like the etherRegen are out of budget for now as I rather invest that money in speakers. If I want to enjoy better sound quality than streaming I can put the CD on.
My comment here has nothing to do with the sound quality of streaming vs CD (I believe the advance of technology will close the gap) but is on my observation of availability of CDs. well, just assuming, life is back to normal, and free to visit stores. I am in Houston, TX, USA. There is few selection of CD I can buy from local store, even to find store carries music CD is very tough. Other places might be different.
EU, when I was expatriated to a small city in south of France, there was FNAC store (sort of like Bestbuy) with lots of CDs to choose from.
Vacation in Rome, before the world was shutdown, while wondering in the city center, passing by a big book store also carry lot of CD. Travel to the a small island (which make 80% or more computer chip in the world) in Asia, again no problem to find musics stores selling CD. Even can find SACD from Japan. Never been to Japan yet, but Japanese seems still very much into CD and SACD. They still has the last Tower records. (Would like to visit.). Maybe, before the CD die out in US, I should scoop more CDs into my collection. (Should pay a visit to GoodWell shop!)
Well, why not buy it online? I am old fashion guy (or I am old!), go to a local store to hunt for CDs is a very different thing from buying CD online. The “feel” makes the shopping experience so difference. I usually pick up more CDs in a shop, rather online.
Not sure I will go 100% streaming (not ready yet), the experience of holding a real stuff, put to the spinner, and play, is so real which not sure I will have same experience from streaming. Maybe, for me, music is not just sound, it also has these other things to make listen a CD on my system so enjoyable.
The files played with my Esoteric transport is more involving than my DMP, but that doesn’t mean my DMP doesn’t sound good, it is still in fact sounds incredible especially playing single layer SACDs. There are a lot of music I have with SACDs that I don’t have with files, I know, I can convert them to files, but I don’t go through the trouble of finding how to do it. I just play it with the DMP. But if I really want the most enjoyment playing music, I go to my turntable. I don’t know if it’s higher fidelity, but it just plain sounds better even than playing files. I know, that will also depend on the quality of the analog system. But there’s just something to how a turntable system handles distortion that is less distracting and more musical.
Most of the time, apostrophe misuse is caused by the autocorrect mechanisms on our phones and tablets. They simply aren’t that smart in understanding context. Add in that very few people go back and review what they’ve written before hitting the post button and we get CD’s, 80’s, etc.
Let it go!
Although I’m reputed to be pretty hyper about correct punctuation and such, in a forum environment, I don’t see the value of making it an issue and jumping on people, especially those for whom English is a second (or third) language. (Or for attacking those who use run-on sentences ).
My rule is anyplace that people are likely to use emojis is a place that I don’t need to be picking nits. Relax and learn to just ignore it.
I think now is a great time to buy CDs because record companies are practically giving music away with all the box sets/compilations coming out in recent years. I still enjoy the ritual of browsing through music bins at record stores. The majority of my CD collection is ripped/stored on a NAS (been hard to keep up though). I also download hi rez music to my NAS as well (can’t always say this is better than CD sound, but will save that debate for another time). I use Roon as a vehicle for streaming (DSD is my endpoint). One element that significantly elevated my streaming experience in terms of sound quality was moving to fiber optic. Check out the article from Absolute Sound. The cost is minimal to get started (I upgraded to Sonore components later and got still better sound), Enjoy!
To put this in context, the original “CD v streaming” argument was more correctly “physical CD v ripped CD” because in those days (when I bought a Linn streamer in 2009, issued in 2007) there was no online streaming and I didn’t even have fast broadband. In those days AAC from iTunes was the main download market.
So if streaming from ripped CDs in a dedicated system was not as good as CD playback, no one would have bought it. If fact they did, lots of people.
People who were later in to the streaming game tended to do it from online streaming services from their computer, because it saved having to buy streaming hardware. Unfortunately, it was asking for trouble.
Over the last 15 years it has become very clear that the level of electrical noise and grounding in particular are critical to good sound from a digital stream. I think any difference between online vs. a ripped file is entirely due to the fact that the online data is going through additional components (modem, switches etc) and it is those devices that potentially put noise into the system, it is nothing to do with the data itself.
As a result, there has been a proliferation of devices mainly aimed at reducing noise, for example for those using a computer usb output they range from the hugely popular AudioQuest JitterBug ($99) to the Innuos PhoenixNet ($3,500).
One answer to noise issues is to put the streamer and DAC in one box. The entire electronic environment can be controlled, in particular the power supply. That is the way most companies have gone. PS Audio have chosen to go the other way, with a separate streamer and a 2-box DAC. Marantz even include an SACD drive (the one used by PS Audio). Hopefully one day PS Audio will see the merit of this approach.
The only reason why CD and SACD player production exists at all is because of the Japanese Market. In 2020 Japan produced 98 million CDs for their domestic market alone. That is over three times the US market at 31 million units. In the USA streaming has 91% of music revenues, in Japan it is still only 30%. Because of the Japanese market, in recent years Marantz have made SACD/CD units specifically for that market and also sell the drives OEM to the likes of PS Audio. So far as I am aware, all the audiophile SACD/CD drives are made by Japanese companies.
PS Audio must have spent a fortune developing the Octave Player software, it’s taken years, Paul has said so, and to do that for a single product (the Octave Server) would be crazy. Just about every company that develops proprietary hardware or software puts it in as many products as possible (Gain Cell, Analog Cell, etc.). It could even be put in a Sprout-type product (like Marantz, NAD, Bluesound etc.).
I can’t think of anyone who has developed software for a single product. It’s so commercially blindingly obvious.
My guess is would be a Stellar level product, probably a SGCD with Octave Player. For all I know, it may already be on the drawing board.
I would also expect Octave to replace the 3rd party app used in the Stellar Integrated Amplifier.
I assumed Octave Player could be included into the DSD DAC with a Bridge v3.
another personal opinion:wink::
).