Checked: Grimm MU1 is €9,200 exc. VAT, Aries G2.1 is €4,070 exc. VAT
The stellar Gain Cell DAC enclosure has plenty of free space to host that new streamer board. With internal (short, so best) I2S connection to the DAC.
Might be a nice upgrade path, for both Stellar Gain Cell DAC and Strata product releases. Existing owners can add that new black box, but new customers or those willing to invest can enjoy that streamer without having to add a plethora of additional cables and a separate power supply.
These units might compete with the NAD C658 and Even M33 in that sleek Stellar enclosure design. Yet the NAD’s feature an integrated Phono stage, which would be a welcoming lower end analog feature for those unable or unwilling to add a separate 2500 $ Phono stage.
Imagine a Stellar Strata with REGA Planar 6 including MM cartridge and KEF LS50 Meta and KC62 Sub. A well balanced set for young enthousiasts who are living in apartments or small homes. Just 2 pieces of electronics featuring top of the bill analog and digital playback on about any speakers of your liking even the vintage speakers you might have already.
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As a long time software developer I know what it takes to build a product like roon.
I take my hat of for the roon team. The are doing a fantastic job.
How many people has PS Audio hired to develop the software? In my opinion you will at least need a time of 5 very skilled developer, maybe 2 front-end developers and 3 for back-end then maybe a program manger and a UX’er
One full time programmer for the past 5 years, a UX and UI designer, and as we near launch a team of another 3 programmers. Not an easy task.
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What are front-end and back-end developers? What does each do?
For example, do front-end program the UI?
Sorry to repeat myself, but ability to play Amazon is at the top of my list of features in order to make a purchase. My Node2i lets me, as well as playing radio stations, other music services, and my ripped CDs.
The BluOS system is indeed very versatile, I love it, it works, as you say with many services.
However some audiophiles want/need:
- Full control over the bit perfect stream, and need a streamer/DAC that informs them about the file format they of every song they play;
- DSD file format that typically, stands for great recordings.
The Node 2i does not offer either. It just sounds very good.
The PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC (even though it costs EUR 1800) does not offer transparency about the file format playing either and is “limited” to DSD 128.
I enjoyed DSD. Perhaps more because of the quality of the recordings and masters by Blue Coast Music and Guss Skinnas than that file format mattered. I was unable to hear a difference between the ALAC lossless file generated from the DSD128 file by DSD Master and the DSD128 file. Both played back via Bit Perfect on my iMac connected to the Stellar Gain Cell DAC.
When The Stellar Gain Cell DAC’s preamplifier section broke down after 1.5 years of use. I completely changed to NAD and BluOS and learned that enjoying the versatility and user friendliness of BluOS mattered a lot more than file formats.
Not knowing, thus not worrying about file formats truly makes enjoying the music a whole lot more.
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Here are a list of software developer types
https://www.technojobs.co.uk/info/developer-guides/the-different-types-of-developer-jobs.phtml
There are also full stack developers but nobody can master all disciplines in software development there are so many technologies Ui frameworks and cloud providers today.
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Responding about Amazon Music et al.
Streaming and local library-wise, it would be nice to hear a bit and maybe see some screen shots from PS Audio of what the Octave controller will be able to do and will have included. Similarly, it would be interesting to know what all kinds of end-point functions the entry Octave streamer-server will have.
I assume the 2018 thread “We’d like some help with Octave” is a bit out of date now. And I do not have a Strata integrated amp, so I do not know what the PS Connect app has. Though, as it is based on the Muzu app, it looks it has Tidal, Qobuz and Spotify covered. Maybe someone with a Strata integrated amp could confirm whether Amazon HD Music is in there or not.
My understanding is that Amazon Music and Amazon Devices do not play so well with others. That I cannot play to Amazon devices from my Plexamp app on my phone is annoying. There is the Alexa Plex skill. But it is not good at figuring out spoken artist names that have umlauted vowels in them. I blame Amazon not Plex here.
I have been running a Bluesound Node 2 for two years now while waiting for the Octave server to come out. Bluesound does have Amazon Music. So presumably Amazon allowed the Lenbrook group in on the API, if not others. But even if the Octave server did not have Amazon Music, there would be other ways for me to get it to my preamp, even if not over the Octave streamer-server itself, depending on its end-point roles.
BTW if PS Audio is looking for any testing to be carried out in Germany on a Stellar stack, I volunteer. Can compare with Roon and Bluesound using Tidal and NAS sources, Plex, LMS via Max2Play Pi4’s, Amazon and more in the house.
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So Octave has 3 developers and another 3 near launch, for software to drive 2 or 3 devices.
The Roon founding team had already developed a pioneering product (Sooloos) and now have 50 full time developers around the world with no permanent premises. Their product works on hundreds of different machines and they don’t have to pay for the hardware implementation.
Any other developer would do well to get even remotely close on UI and features. Innuos thought the weakness is the power consumption and rwsulting noise, so spent 4 years developing a streamer that is far quieter and better suited to their hardware.
It is a free upgrade aimed more at sound quality because you can’t really beat Roon at their own game.
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Reminds me. One of my Roon annoyances is the difficulty to play specific files from specific folders. I am picky about my tag editing and sometimes Roon confuses European vs US vs Australian version of albums that I have. Or sometimes I have a mix directly from a DJ, that they gave me on a CD. And I keep having to input that I want my version of the album and not what Tidal has. Hopefully Octave will support playing from specific folders.
Roon can only load the data they are given by record companies and they use regional preference based on the subscription location.
You preset to load Roon metadata or file metadata on import, you can set multiple fields separately, and you can change the selection for any album. So you should have no issue with your DJ mixes.
The whole idea of Roon is to index attached music file locations and streaming account favourites and purchases into one integrated music database. Going back to your file structure is totally regressive. Roon have said years ago that they are not going there. If you really want to do it, you can create a tag naming the location and search/select the tag in Focus>File location>tags.
I use Roon, but am a fairly light user. My wife is way more into it. It’s a bit like Microsoft Office - it has so much functionality that most complaints are because the person does not know where things are. That’s not a criticism as there is so much functionality.
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… The massive number of manufacturers making their devices Roon Ready is not just testament to how good it is, but more the sheer cost of designing anything remotely as good. Most of the good streaming software precedes Roon’s dominance. Innuos seem to have a much larger development team than PS Audio and they have a massive list of features to implement, as well as bugs to remove.
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For what it’s worth, I’m enjoying the combination of letting Roon/Qobuz run wild with my collection and the precise organization of my own, large, collection utilizing JRiver. Sonore devices allow for a simple switch between DLNA and RAAT. I initially fought Roon, I’m on my 3rd extended trial, but am no longer fighting it and just letting it take over. It’s working for me. Going to buy a year of Qobuz sublime this week and extend the Roon trial into a subscription. Money well spent.
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Although my system is Roon Ready, one kid uses it with Spotify and the other Airplay. All the music devices in the house have all these systems built in. One of the advantages of Roon is that it is a good way of using Qobuz on multiple devices without even trying. After a while, I stop even thinking whether something is coming from a stored or streamed source.
My lighting system that is also an immersive sound system will also be Roon Ready fairly soon, so I’m told. It can be Alexa controlled, obviously.
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I love Roon. Been a lifetime subscriber for better than five years. User interface/\metadata is excellent. In my system, it does a real good job, but when I am chasing sound quality, I go with my Aurender A-10 (Aurender Conductor software), or one of my Bryston BDP-2s (MPD - Manic Moose software). The Brystons are also Roon Ready RAAT endpoints. The MPD just sounds better to me.
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I thought maybe I’d get a few comments back questioning Roon! It is really good. So no surprise. I run five different media servers in the house on three devices pointing at the same NAS files (in stereo and surround formats, in FLAC and DSD formats) and streaming services. Though actually the stereo DSD files are in two locations to fess up. So I can recognize that Roon is really good.
That is why PS Audio need to play well both with streaming services… as discussed at the start of the weekend… and with Roon. So many of the prospective customers for Octave servers use them. And discs are just about dead. Probably the only way to get some audiophile sales volume on a new ripper-storer would be if it ripped SACD into DSF adding the tag info. But such sales would not last long once the audiophile community bought their units. Maybe oneday there will be more DSD streaming coming too.
So, does this mean that the Octave server also should be able to be a Roon core, not just an endpoint, so as to get decent audiophile community volume?
As explained above, I’m a Roon user. It runs on an Innuos Zen Mk3 and serves multiple devices, even my wireless headphones via a phone. If the Innuos 2.0 streamer software produces better sound than Roon, I can run Roon on a QNAP (currently not used for audio) and run the Innuos as a standalone streamer, which would be much like how I understand the Octave streamer will work. Innuos 2.0 has to be good enough in terms of functionality, and certainly not annoying. It does not have to be as good as Roon.
So I can see where Octave is headed, much the same as Innuos 2.0. It will have to succeed on sound quality and it can be done outside of Roon, although with Innuos you have the option of running it as a Roon server/Core or as an Innuos server/streamer. You can also run other things uPnP as well.
If Innuos 2.0 is well received, I can see them bringing out a separate streamer box, because the accepted wisdom is to keep the streamer and Roon Core apart if possible. That should be one of the benefits of Octave, as it not running a Roon Core.
I get where you’re coming from but that’s not something that makes sense to me. Starting with the obvious, a Roon “core” and a Roon Server and a Roon End Point are all part of the Roon ecosystem. They are basically single board computers running a program.
Roon is a great program. A wonderful music management system. A beautiful user interface, a decent cataloguer and a reasonable search engine. It (like everything) has its flaws. It doesn’t sound very good IMHO. If you want to experience that for yourself, spend the few bucks needed to purchase the latest version of Audirvana and have a listen. The differences are stark and obvious. But, as hard as Damien of Audirvana tries his UI/UX is not Roon (it’s now better than before).
It would make no sense for us to build into the Roon ecosystem. We’re not fans of its server/client approach nor do we support its sound quality.
Because there are thousands of PS customers who are Roon clients, we agreed to provide our Octave streamers the ability to serve as a Roon End Point. That will allow Roon users to have an upgraded hardware solution like they have never had. While I have yet to try this, my guess is that given the galvanic isolation of Octave’s output stage, Roon users will for the first time get to hear music with qualities they’ve yet to hear. It should be an excellent upgrade over any Roon based hardware yet.
But, Octave is more than that. Octave is itself an ecosystem. And like all ecosystems, once you buy into the whole Magilla you enjoy all the benefits.
And there are many. Stay tuned.
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A lot of people agree with you that Roon sound quality is not optimal, hence Innuos spent 4 years developing their own software even though many of their customers, me included, bought their machines specifically to run Roon. You get the whole Megillah (Yiddish for a “book”, usually The Book of Ester - Magilla is apparently a gorilla cartoon character) from Auralic Lightning and NAD/Bluesound BluOs, which is why they are so popular.
Innuos implemented two data outputs, one using RJ45/CAT and the other usb. As the former does not provide transmit power, and has an isolation transformer built in to the socket, I assume it is effectively galvanically isolated. The usb sockets have a dedicated linear power supply. So the Zen and Zenith models have proven very popular because they provide an exceptionally good Roon output.
Of course there are additional reclocking boxes and more advanced devices like the SGM Extreme, so to get the most from Roon is really a matter of how much you are prepared to pay. A Zen Mk3 with 1TB HD is $2,850, the SGM Extreme something like $35,000.
Frankly, using Innuos, Melco, Sonore or any other device purely as a Roon server with an optical or CAT cable data link (i.e. electrically isolated) sending bit perfect data to a streamer (i.e. without any DSP) is popular as it seems to be very effective.
I’m still rebuilding, but have my ethernet and optical cables buried in the wall and ready to connect up my system to the modem. The AV, audio and internet locations will all have dedicated shielded mains supplies from a 100A phase separate from the rest of the house and its own earthing. The loop impedance is 0.08 ohms, I still don’t know what that means in reality!
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