RCA vs XLR

I would say that the convertors are no more or less likely to be influenced by EMI/RFI as any component - or part within a component - upstream or downstream from each end of this cable (i.e. source, amp, pre-amp). Traditional metal conductors within the cable, being of length (generally at least 3 feet long) have a much greater potential to pick up interference than the RCA jacks on both ends, I assume. So, while technically, the two RCA jacks which house the conversion circuits could technically pick up this interference, I think its potential to do so it minuscule compared to the full length of a metal conductor-based cable. All I know is this cable is quiet in my system and that was not the case with any metal conductor cable I used. The main (potentially the only) culprit of noise was a ground loop which this photon cable immediately and entirely eliminated.

This is not an absolute. As I stated earlier, unbalanced from my pre-amp to amp sounds better than balanced in my system. Because of the increased output voltage from the XLR outs on my DS DAC, I run XLR to my fully differential preamp. But, from my pre-amp to amp, I prefer RCA over XLR.

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me too, with the same arrangement.

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This is one of those things that, while there isnā€™t necessarily any argument about the technical advantages of one method over another on paper, it doesnā€™t automatically tell you anything about the quality of the implementation of one or the other in a given device, or mean that one will sound better than another in Your System, even if they are implemented equally well.

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whew! All that in one sentence!

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'Thatā€™s not what I heard in my system or my brotherā€™s. He has the BHK 250. May I ask what power amp are you using?

I have the runs.

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I donā€™t doubt that. My reply was merely offering an alternative to your allusion that XLR sounds better than RCA as a general rule of thumb. As @badbeef stated, there is more to this comparison of ā€œXLR vs RCAā€ that pretty much renders the argument of which is superior, useless. Depending on the components, cable design/construction, listening environment, sensory skills, etc., there will be cases where each of these cable types will bring superior results to a given audio system.

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OK, so XLR being superior is not universal. Thereā€™s another item that I find interesting concerning XLR output. My brother use a Decware ZBIT that can retain the higher voltage of XLR and outputs it to a RCA input from his DS to his Conrad Johnson and found the sound considerably better, thanks to @lonson for the recommendation. BTW, turning the volume all the way up on the ZBIT sounds best for him. That was between dac and preamp, so he try putting the ZBIT between phono and preamp, and lo and behold, same increase in musicality. Now he has to get another one. The Decware is a bit expensive so he might try a cheaper version from Jensen, but donā€™t know if it would be as good. Wonder if anyone has experience on this.

Iā€™m not aware of a cheaper version from Decware. I do know that one can buy a Jensen stereo pair of transformers joined together in a bit of metal that are probably the same transformers as Decware uses, with no adjustment to the output, just a full 1:1 conversion. If indeed he generally listens to the output in full (I find the best sound in my system is about 80 to 90 percent) then this may work well but Iā€™d trust the better ground and build of the Decware myself.

I definitely am sold on the ZBITā€“I have one in each of two systems.

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Galen, Iā€™m curious if a phono interconnect, i.e., from cartridge to phono preamp, is treated any different for this discussion. My understanding is the output of a cartridge is balanced, but almost all phono interconnects are via single ended RCA. Not sure if this is really any different From your discussion above but thought I should be certain before proceeding with a ā€œprojectā€.

Now for some (long winded) context; I have a VPI Aries turntable with JMW-12.5 arm. Upon reading (many years ago) that phono cartridges are inherently balanced I decided I needed a phono pre that could accommodate said balanced signal. The only one I could afford at the time was a used Audio Research PH-2 (both input and output were balanced only). The issue was making the balanced connection at the junction box, initially I used an RCA cable which I changed the preamp end to XLR. Thinking this was not the best, and not wanting to afford the XLR junction box (about $250 as I recall), I got lucky and found a modified junction box that was hard wired with DH Labs balanced cable direct from the junction box Lemo connector (by-passing the RCA connectors) and terminated with XLR connectors at the preamp end of the cable. (For those not familiar with VPI arms, the wiring inside the arm is terminated with a short pigtail with a miniature connector (Lemo) that connects to a corresponding Lemo connector on the junction box that converts the connections to RCA jacks). When I sold the PH-2 for the PS Audio NPC I could no longer use that junction box, so it got packed away. I have since upgraded to the Stellar phono and feel I can now hear more into the music and it has re-ignited my interest in vinyl. So now I am motivated to try some tweaks I have been procrastinating about. One is the interconnects. Iā€™m currently using VPI interconnects, which Iā€™ve read are Ok, but can be easily improved. Coincidentally, Harry Weisfeld (designer of my Aries), pronounced hard wiring of the phono leads as a great tweak. My first thought was the hard wired junction box I have. I could remove the XLR connectors and replace them with high quality RCA connectors. A quick and easy improvement! Well, maybe not since your statement above says otherwise.

First question, is it a good or bad idea to modify the cable I have? Second question, assuming itā€™s a bad (or just not very good) idea, what are your thoughts on phono leads? Stiffness can be a liability in my set up so keep that in mind. In the event this has already been answered let me know where. Thanks in advance!

If you donā€™t have noise, balanced wonā€™t be a help, really. But, VPI does allow a BALANCED BOX to be added to some of their products.

I use ICONOCLAST UPOCC 1x4 RCA cables and have zero noise issues with the ground design used in the RCA cable.

Noise INCLUDES the input end, too. RCA is far simpler and thus less prone to coloration. But, if the input side also adds a jump in DCR, it can ADD noise to the RCA system that the cable isnā€™tā€¦itā€™s all going to add up.

The RCA are smaller and plenty flexible even in the ICONOCLAST Teflon design. Donā€™t use XLR modified as RCA or the benefits of a good RCA arenā€™t going to be heard, the basis in each design is very different as I
tried to convey earlier.

Both systems can be pretty good if you use the right cables. XLR in short lengths wonā€™t be impacted much by common to differential noise conversion over a shorter reach. Then again, the benefits of noise reduction arenā€™t there.

The big XLR advantage is a stronger signal, and thatā€™s not to be trifled with when using a low output device since better S/N ratio can provide a seriously good bump in ā€œblacknessā€. This is what is really happening with the change to XLR.

The better XLR signal level is what you are after using XLR, especially if you have NOISE already. It is the right step to mitigate the problem.

I use a Pass Labs XP-25, so the RCA is perfectly fine in my system so ā€œbetterā€ isnā€™t really better at the noise level I experience with RCA (canā€™t hear it eight inches from the speaker).

Best,
Galen Gareis

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My brother just ordered the Jensen so weā€™ll know soon the difference in sound between the ZBIT and Jensen. He will use the Jensen on his Digital system. His analog sounds way better than his digital so he will use the better, which probably be the ZBIT on the analog. His Mac Mini even with the Matrix 2 and all the tweaks, is not even close to his analog, so that is the main system. He is waiting for a good server, maybe the upcoming Octave.

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We seem to be trying to lump the sound onto just the cable. Thatā€™s not going to work, or even come close to ā€œuniversallyā€ saying this cable or that cable type is better. There is simply no winner in that war and here is why;

  • I touched on how the CABLE itself works. Itā€™s just the physics.
  • The I/O stages are as significant as the amp or pre amp you use. Sometimes more so.
  • Balanced can be true balanced all the way through, with no ground reference and isolated ā€œhotsā€, with JUST the potential between each of the two wires. Less electronics at the input stage but twice the electronics past the input.
  • Balanced can go into a differential amp and be converted to single ended circuit. More electronics at the input stage.
  • Unbalanced can go straight into the input stage with no electronics and, less electronics past the input stage, which is usually just a resistor.

Circuits can be DESIGNED as balanced or unbalanced, and the cable that best meets the basic circuit design will work the best. If you use a true unbalanced circuit, use and RCA. If it is truly balanced, use an XLR.

Both balanced and unbalanced types can ā€œconvertā€ the input to the fundamental circuit design with some trade-off in performance. The input that isnā€™t matching the actual circuit past the input stage is more of a ā€œconvenienceā€ to the end user than the ideal cable to use. Using an XLR with PIN 2 hot to PIN 1 ground isnā€™t really an ideal top performance RCA cable, it just gets close to acting like and RCA cable. Likewise an RCA into a transformer or differential amp isnā€™t as good as an output stage that is already true balances onto the right cable.

Check you equipment and see what itā€™s native circuit design is/are. Best is to MATCH the output to the input. True balanced into true balanced. Unbalanced into unbalanced. Both circuits can be very good done rightā€¦and biased for their intended cicuit topology.

Sometimes we have a single ended preamp feeding a true balanced amp. Not the ā€œidealā€ match, really. Here we need to experiment some. Which side needs more help? Donā€™t know. USUALLY it is the active output stage, over a resistive input stage as thatā€™s where the signal gets distorted and once itā€™s messed up, it stays that way.

BOTH sides being matched, with good cable of course, can sound terrific. But to universally say you are missing something not using balanced isnā€™t true, and is missing something in the claim of one cable over another. Same the opposite way around, many unbalanced systems are really good. More information is needed to define ā€œbetterā€ than to say XLR is always better. It isnā€™t.

Each circuit topology will be designed for a biased set of parameters; great ground plane consistency or true balanced input with ground isolated polarities and no input op amp conversion. Those circuit design differences force a cable design bias as well. It canā€™t be any other way.

Galen Gareis

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Galen
Thanks for your ā€œmaster classesā€ on cable design.
Iā€™ve been curious about my setup (all Iconoclast cables), which is balanced into my XP-30 preamp and RCA out to my SE only amp. Is there any issue with this arrangement? I donā€™t hear any deficit but Iā€™m curious if I should be all RCA.
Ron

i assume all PS Audio equipment is properly balanced. If so, should I even consider using RCA cables? I am using the DSD dac in to the BHK 300s.

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The XP-30 is a true balanced design, and why the RCA has to use a shorting PIN jumper used with RCA (to remove the negative voltage channel). You can do this two waysā€¦
-) if you use a XLR to the amp and the SE amp has a cheater arrangement (steals PIN 2 to PIN 1) this negates the XLRā€™s function to a single ended arrangement. Here it is better to use an RCA as thatā€™s how the signal is being ā€œmovedā€ down the wire.

-)Some units are balanced out only, and if you go very far it is better it is better to use a differential amp stage at the amp, and convert the signal to SE at that point so the signal is ā€œmovedā€ from A to B properly and with minimal noise.

-) If the SE amp has a true differential input circuit inside, that converts the balanced input to a single ended input use an XLR from the true balanced preamp. This will keep noise out up to the difference amplifier in the amps front end. It is rare that single ended amps have the proper balanced input option that is then taken SE from there into the amp past the input stage.

-) if you have a single end only preamp to a balanced only input amp, convert the single end at the send end to XLR with a differential amp. Thus, send the signal the longer distance over XLR.

If you are using a true singe ended amp, yes, use a true RCA cable to get the best possible noise performance going to your amp from the XP-30. If the amp is balanced internally, youā€™d want to use the balanced out.

If you use a XLR to a single ended amp with a cheater input circuit, the XLR cable will not work as well as a true RCA and is exactly WHY I wonā€™t wire an XLR as and RCA. Use the right cable so it works at itā€™s peak design potential.

Most better / worse than issues are simply a mismatch in the proper cableā€™s between each component. I use BOTH RCA and XLR as appropriate and there are indeed appropriate uses.

Best,
Galen Gareis

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Yes, PS Audio is balanced. Iā€™ve had issues with hum/buzzing using RCA into the BHKā€™s and ZERO issues with the proper balanced cable runs as far as 35 feet. These amps are sensitive to the proper cables.

Best,
Galen Gareis

Thanks Galen. The amp is an XA25 and Iā€™m pretty sure itā€™s not internally balanced.
Your cables work perfectly with the transparency of the preamp and amp.

Iā€™m all clear on the synergy of maintaining a balanced (or unbalanced) connection from source to cable to pre (or amp), so no need to rehash that. Iā€™m still a little stuck on the phono cartridge as the ā€œsourceā€ though. I did a quick search, and surprisingly, one of the first links was to a Paulā€™s Daily Post from 2016! He talks specifically about the phono cartridge being balanced and, the shocker, the input of the NPC is balanced even though it uses an RCA connector! Iā€™m sure I read this, but I sure donā€™t remember it. I still have the NPC, but the Stellar Phono sounds much better. I did search the owners manual for both the NPC and Stellar Phono and neither one mentions the input is balanced. So ā€¦ Now the $64,000 questions is ā€¦ does the Stellar Phono have a balanced input? Paul or Darren, what say you?