"REAL" What Does This Mean To You?

Have you ever noticed a "Gut Feeling"?
The gut feels too and transmits to the brain for processing.
The big difference is the gut does not have Judgement qualities. So if something JUST FEELS RIGHT, then Maybe IT IS.


IME gut and brain must work together. Gut is too easily fooled if something tastes good. Brain is too easily fooled if something looks good.
jazzbug said: To me it [playback] feels 3D glasses watching Avatar.

An excellent analogy! Well done.

This precisely expresses the difference between live sound and recorded playback. Sadly, audiophiles are typically most interested in the 3D effects which are unfortunate inherent artifacts of recording/playback.

Gordon said: Let's not necessarily take "real" as a literal term or confuse it with live.

=))

I appreciate the abstraction, but the nomenclature needs a great deal of work.

Perhaps it is unreal, akin to the undead - but without the smell.

I have never in my life heard a system where the sound in the room could be confused with “real.” As pointed out by others, there are too many other visceral cues that give it away. On the other hand, I have heard a few systems that could fool me, at least briefly, when listening from around the corner or down the hall.



Too, my familiarity with acoustic and electric guitars, as a player, makes guitar recordings a particular challenge for me. Likewise, the resonance and decay of a piano is a difficult one to get right, as is the sound of brass instruments.The timbre of various drum heads make them easily identifiable in the best systems and give me the sensation of not quite real but “real enough.” I also get this sensation when I hear singers or wind players take a breath between notes.



Esau

It would also be cool to amass a list of redbook recordings that could be used in the quest for testing for “real” sound. Ted’s already mentioned “Piece of My Heart” by Big Brother and the Holding Company. Here are a few suggestions from me:



Keith Richards/Main Offender/the sound of rock electric guitar

John Renbourn/The Lady and the Unicorn/flute, viola and acoustic guitar

Patricia Barber/Live at the Green Mill/a live jazz combo

any Janos Starker/cello

John Coltrane/Favorite Things/sax, natch

Rob Wasserman/Duets/upright bass

Weather Report/Heavy Weather/try “Birdland” and “Teen Town” for electric bass(Jaco!)



Esau

Actually it was “Summertime” on the “Cheap Thrills” album by Big Brother and the Holding Company :slight_smile:

cripes… it is still winter here!

I still believe it’s the mic technology that hasn’t changed much over the years and is the biggest factor in sound reproduction. I once even pitched my idea of a new type of microphone that senses the compressions and rarifactions without a diaphragm to a top speaker designer hoping he would bite at the chance to research it. Perhaps that could be Paul and Ted’s next project.

esimms86 said: . . . my familiarity with acoustic and electric guitars, as a player, makes guitar recordings a particular challenge for me.

Given that an electric guitar speaks only through a speaker, and is typically recorded with a mic inches away from the cabinet, does the playback of the recording of a solo electric guitar sound convincing to you? I have made such recordings and they sound strikingly real, but I am not a guitarist.

emailists said: I still believe it's the mic technology that hasn't changed much over the years ans is the biggest factor in sound reproduction.

There has been a lot of microphone development and refinement in the last ten years, as there has been with speakers. I find playback to still be the limiting factor; we continue to find more and more to hear in even fifty year old recordings.

But microphones can certainly be improved further. We already have pressure gradient microphones (as opposed to velocity sensitive which we have as well) but, as you point out, they incorporate a diaphragm. How would you eliminate the diaphragm? There are pressure gradient microphones on a microchip. but I doubt this is what you have in mind.

Ted, mea-culpa. Yes, you did say "Summertime."



Elk, here you somewhat get into the issue of close miking of guitar amps and how much that captures the “true” sound. Yes, close mic’ed electric guitar recordings can sound incredibly real. When you play electric guitar, however, you’re listening from maybe a foot or more away, you’re hearing the sound of the room, plus you’re getting the visceral feel of air movement from the amp. Having a close mic plus another mic placed further away can get you closer to the “true” sound that the guitarist heard/felt but, as always, perfection is an elusive goal.



When you record acoustic guitars, BTW, you can manipulate the sound subtly (or not so subtly) with eq. When you hear one live without a mic the trained ear can almost always tell, with eyes closed of course, whether the guitar is, say, a Martin, a Taylor or a Gibson.



Esau

As I suspected, an electric guitarist can hear subtleties that would not occur to me. Cool.



I have heard a lot of nicely recorded acoustic guitar, but it never sounds quite real to me upon playback - although it is great listening.



I have a friend that has played, performed and recorded guitars for years. He can easily tell by sound different acoustic guitar makes, design, electric guitars, electric guitar pick-up mods, etc. It feels like a savant type thing for those of us without the skill.

And, Elk, I’ve just scratched the surface here. There’s the sound of single coil vs. humbucker pickups and the sound of mahogany vs. maple vs. East Indian rosewood vs. Brazilian rosewood, plus more. And, yes, in each case most guitarists can tell the difference.



Esau

@gordon

There is about http://www.languagemonitor.com/new-words/number-of-words-in-the-english-language-1008879/. In the English language I know about 100 and can spell it out. Not that anyone here would understand me with many questions. But there is most defiantly plenty of words . Hahaha



Al

Such Sesquipedalianism is highly encouraged here in this kingdom

Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation

For some reason I’m reminded of a particular quote from Blazing Saddles…



Hedley Lamarr:

My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.



Taggart:

God darnit, Mr. Lamarr, you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore.





JJ :smiley:

=))

@tedsmith

Thanks for clearing that up.

I had an interesting chat with a cable manufacturer yesterday. I will be auditioning their interconnects and speaker cables shortly.

I had a giggle as he described his companies objectives and listening criteria. It was pretty much in line with some of my comments while testing the DS.

One of his comments included off axis listening.

“When you walk by a club or even through the doorway, there is no such experience as soundstage, sweet spot listening and there are many reflections including doors and walls between you and the MUSIC”.

He sounded like a “G” clone. =))

It is ALL about the MUSIC.

Sure we love our equipment and the research that eventually emptied our wallets.

It just seems to me that most of the superlatives the reviewers use are describing how the equipment delivers the sound. Important? YES.

But when it does it right, then we get to move on OR into the MUSIC and that’s why we supposedly bought all the “stuff” to play it in the first place.

I am really bubbling with anticipation to hear from y’all when you get your DSs to see/hear if your attention and listening priorities also get a little more shifted to the MUSIC and enjoyment of it when it comes to the feedback.

Some have suggest a list of great audition tracks and albums.

Like Paul said at the beginning, your libraries just may hold more treasures than you realize.

It could be a very long list.

Meanwhile I will report back on the cables in a couple of weeks. They are up against Shunyata and MIT so it should be fun.

Gordon said: . . . if your attention and listening priorities also get a little more shifted to the MUSIC and enjoyment of it . . .

Is this not what this avocation is all about? If this is not your experience with every single system upgrade, why bother?

This is the mere entry-level requirement of every new component I introduce. I fully expect the DS to meet this standard. If not (highly unlikely) I'll send it back home.

:smiley: