Quite often the data is not available. I can reasonably guestimate the effective mass of my Clearaudio arm to be low but the data just is nowhere to be found.
There’s also the Vinyl Engine database of tonearms and cartridges. According to that, Koetsus are very low compliance so around 15g or more of tonearm effective mass would be required. https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable-database.php
And that’s how I got confused: reviews and data point out to the Koetsu cartridges being best mated with medium to heavy arms but Mørch web site recommends the red dot arm tube with the effective mass of 7.5g (vs. the blue dot with the effective mass of 14g). A plausible explanation is that some Japanese manufacturers calculate the compliance at 100Hz instead of 10hz. If Mørch just pulls data from technical specs that gets them wrong.
I’m wondering whether DB-8 + Urushi blue could be a winner combination for acoustic jazz. The current Tangent + Stradivari v2 would do the job for other music - possibly upgrading the cartridge to a higher end CA or a VdH if I feel rich one day and can sort out my phono stage inputs.
Where I live I just don’t get do demo anything so have to fly by the meters.
Now you know with so many options available why I’ve chosen to avoid Koetsu. I’m not interested in spending that much scratch when the manufacturer won’t provide basic data, like compliance, for assessment of tonearm compatibility. It is nowhere to be found on the Koetsu USA website.
The whole tonearm-cartridge business is kind of annoying. Too many moving parts and too much guesswork. That’s why I have been sticking to the arm I have and just go through the Clearaudio cartridge upgrade program when the one I have wears out.
However, after upgrading my system a bit the CD is starting to sound almost as good as vinyl. Can’t allow that, can we. I have ordered a bearing upgrade and now looking into tonearms and cartridges. I do get a nagging feeling, though, that I’m making this too complicated for myself.
IMHO, we have to acknowledge that CD players and CD records have came a long way. My player (Ayre c5-xe) is not particularly new and not particularly high end but with newly made records from select labels it does sound good even if the interconnect to the preamp is quite basic. I never warmed to the Ayre amps despite rave reviews but that player really clicked. I like digital for classical music but for other genres it just doesn’t have the right feel even if it’s hard to pinpoint why exactly it is like that.
I am waiting for a new tonearm, a bearing upgrade and a new tonearm cable. Let’s see what will happen when those arrive. My modest expectation is that they will show the CD player with no uncertainty who’s the boss here.
You might get noticeably further with those upgrades. At the end as you say, to reach vinyl heaven is depending on a lot of variables and you need to have the right consultants. Combining roughly by oneself often doesn’t lead to ultimate success unfortunately. I also went through ups and downs.
If you reach the stage you aim for, you will assume that no DAC will ever get there, given DAC quality jumps we know so far, not only for pure analog produced media, it’s simply another stage, aside of matters of taste or cliches of coloration, pleasant sound etc. It’s obviously another league in realism and imaging magic, but also the technical characteristics then for everyone who hears it. But as you know already that ain’t get cheap
And most important, the final stage will need great dedication to details and perfection in setup as well as matching. However you can have huge fun also much earlier with less complication
There is bound to be a fair bit of trial and error involved in tonearms and cartridges. That’s why I have been delaying it but now I’m bored brainless in this never ending lockdown so I needed a distraction and went for it. Will keep the current cartridge for the time being and see how it responds to the new arm. Once I get familiar with it I will start thinking about cartridges.
I am actually quite jealous to the hifi shopping opportunities you Americans have. Over here, it’s best to order the equipment from Europe as you wouldn’t get to trial them anyway. There’s a good chance the distributor even doesn’t have stock but each item is ordered separately. Yet, you are expected to pay a hefty premium for the services.
Digital is sort of falling further and further behind in importance. I do listen to classical from CD/SACD and occassional background jazz for convenience. Don’t feel like investing as it is very much becoming a secondary source. There are great players and DACs out there but just can’t motivate myself of getting into the upgrade bandwagon.
When you say normal arms didn’t work for you, what did you go for?
I tried the SME V, the Rega RB9 and I think a Triplanar also. All the medium mass tonearms didn’t seem to work well, but the cartridge itself also has extreme characteristics (good/less good). After I learned how important a good tonearm, optimal resonance deduction from the cartridge and proper arm/cartridge matching is, I realized that a charming (only) cartridge is not necessary anymore then.
For me digital is also very important, simply because most newly produced music is just available digitally. The DS DAC for reasonable money is so good that I don’t miss anything when I don’t listen to vinyl a lot (and that’s meant as a big compliment). The problem is since some upgrades of the vinyl rig, the distance got very much bigger and I listen a lot with it
But the amount of new music and the convenience will always give digital a different but not smaller importance for me.
While we talk about apples/oranges when comparing the financial impact of both, I’m convinced, that even when going in a region of 20-100k range of DAC prices, the major step of SQ improvement is not achievable because it’s buried somewhere else in digital processing during recording and media production.
If you read the DSD/PCM discussions, you realize how critical the digital experts are even about the basic format PCM (vs. DSD and analog), which is still the format we have to live with for the vast majority of recordings available digitally or even as source for SACD‘s. Sorry, I was carried away…
Isn’t the whole purpose of a discussion forum to get carried away?
Many of the arms are fairly light but I went for 14g effective mass to make sure I can accommodate a range of cartridges. I am curious to see the impact but after all, the current tangential arm I have is a baseline mode so any higher end arm would be likely to make a difference. I do like the tangential arms but the limitations have just became too obvious.
In principle I agree with you re: limited availability of new music on vinyl. Yet, there is so much good new music out there that one can’t possibly have but a fraction of it anyway. Ergo, I choose my fraction mostly from what’s available on vinyl. I will miss out on some good music but I would miss out on some good music in any case. I am slowly getting together a collection of downloaded music, currently listened to in the car but it is foreseeable that it will become a significant source one day. As I do not intend to do away with the physical record, a single box SACD player with a digital input would be preferred but that may or may not happen. The DS DAC looks quite reasonably priced, maybe I should give it a listen once this lockdown nonsense is over.
What is frustrating is the poor quality of some new vinyl. Poor recordings and masterings, records which get a VG or even lower rating straight off the wrap, the ways labels deal with squeezing three sides worth of music to LP to match a CD, you name it. Still not a perfect world out there, is it.
I love my Miyajima Madake (RSP 4,950 $ in the US). It’s like a Koetsu with top end. I have an old Koetsu Black lying around (it’s not mine and pretty worn out). I absolutely loved it for three days but then the treble roll off started bugging me. Supposedly newer ones are better but I still think I’ll stay away from the Koetsus. I also have an Ortofon Xpression and that comes pretty close to the Miyajima (it’s amazing how the Ortofon’s have such different character, no family sound there) but can of course only be mounted on arm with a detachable headshell (and a sufficiently heavy counterweight). I’ve got the Miyajima mounted on an Origin Live Illustrious 12’’ and the Ortofon on an SME M2-9R. Both combos work just fine. In my experience the issue of cartridge/arm matching and resonance frequencies shouldn’t be exaggerated. I’ve run suboptimal combinations and they’ve worked just fine. But then there are some carts (and arms) that are fidgety sons of b*itches, like the Dynavector DV20X2 that feeds a lot of energy back to the headshell and needs a firm hand (arm). An SME V does it. With lesser arms the upper mids harden. Wonderfully energetic rock n’ roll cart though.
I’m very selective and ensure I only buy great remasterings and recordings, so this happens extremely rarely to me. There are enough companies doing first class reissues if you’re aware of them. But I admit that’s not as easy in the Rock/Pop.genre as in Jazz. But if you don’t care or don’t know how to, you’re in danger of buying crap here and there.
I have a Koetsu Urushi on an Illustrious Mk3 12" and there are no issues with the treble. Been using it about 4 years. If I want a bit more thump for jazz and piano I use the other arm, a SoundSmith Zephyr Mk3 high output on a Jelco 850 12".
I’ve only heard the Urushi in fleeting but as far as I’ve read and heard when you go up the range with the Koetsus, the top end improves. However, according to frequency measurements I’ve seen they all drop a few dB’s in the treble. Better that than the opposite but I prefer a flat frequency range.
I currently use Sumiko Blackbird hi output MC on Origin Live Onyx tonearm, and similarly priced Rega Apheta 2 on Rega RB808 tonearm.
Taking all design aspects and pricing into account, from my observation the Blackbird, while highly dynamic and satisfying, has a stylus that picks up more background noise from the surface as opposed to the Apheta 2. Rega say the new Apheta 3 has a stylus that is even quieter and more accurate.
I am eying Gold Ring Ethos, because of its vital stylus cut (same as the Aphelion). I setup the Gold Ring for a friend on Oracle Delphi and SME 309 tonearm. The sound is way better than what I have now!
I agree. The Ortofon Bronze is bang for the buck. I have one on my Music Hall 3.3. At $500 Canadian it’s not cheap but worth every cent. What does a $7000 + cart really do compared one that’s $2000 more or less. Where is the $$$ sweet spot?
A perfect example if poor pressOmg quality Is the 25th anniversary Thug Life.
The spindle hole is cut horribly. And there was obvious debris on the press when they were done as you can see the blemish all over side 2. Gone are the days of actual analog engineers actually doing the work. Probably a summer high school job now. I’ll take a nice copy of a vinyl from the 60-80’s any day over a “ remastered” digital copy of something new.
What does a 7000 cartridge do that a 2000 doesn’t?
Well, that would depend on the rest of your system. The more resolving it is, the more clear will the differences be. Putting a 7000 $ cartridge in a relatively modest system would be a waste of money. The differences might be barely audible and certainly not worth the extra money. But if the audio system is good enough to reveal the differences you will hear more detail, more tonal colors, more room information and sometimes also more slam. The cheaper cartridge will sound flat and congested in comparison.
Where is the $$$$ sweet spot?
Again, this will depend on the quality of the rest of the system (and of course the ‘quality’ of your finances). It’s a question of balance. Having said this, I would say that something happens in the 1500-2000 price range (think eg. Lyra Delos or Ortofon Cadenza Blue). At that price you start getting many of the qualities that I described previously and one might speak of a sweet spot. But then again, I’m writing these lines listening to a Miyajima Madake (6000 ) and find everything about it but having to pay for it excessively sweet
