Thanks, as I haven’t heard them back to back, how’s the sound characteristic different? I’ve heard DS Sr only at AXPONA.
Just a note for all here, no matter how we may think about evaluating products by measurement and if the design of DS with some inherent higher noise floor (as measured) impacts the sound, ONE THING that sits above ALL ELSE for me, is the candid discussion, openness and honesty showed here by Ted and PS Audio. I know of no other company that opens themselves up to criticism like this, specially in the age of internet trolls, haters, and ppl who LOVE to dump on folks when they’re seemingly down!!! I command Ted, Paul and the PS Audio team to be above it all and to try and explain their design and engineering decisions to laments like us.
I for one, am learning more and more and forums like these are actually great to grow the audiophile community! Kudos all around!
If you hear them separately you’d notice the same overall character of sound. I’d be happy with either, but in a room side to side you’ll notice a difference: the Sr having a little more ease, a slightly more precise soundstage (the sources of the sound in the sound stage are both better located and more stable), the DS is just more of what makes the DS Jr good IMO.
Slightly off topic: just now when I looked into my inbox there was an email from Jenson Transformers. It seems like a coincidence, I don’t remember ever getting a mass email from them before 
Coincidence, only a coincidence.
Linn is a very sound small company. It makes about £1million profit a year, invests £2million annually in R&D and is sitting on a balance sheet worth about £13million. It has £20million sales spread widely over the world and about 170 staff. It has a well structured product range of exceptional quality at the high end and the Linn Selekt at the lower end has been a huge success. I wonder how PS Audio compares to that.
Devialet was founded based on amplifier and power supplies invented by Pierre Calmel, he remains the Chief Technical Officer and has a list of patents as long as your arm relating both to audio and his previous career as a telecoms research engineer.
https://patents.justia.com/inventor/pierre-emmanuel-calmel
The Head of Devialet R&D is Mathieu Pernot, who has been there since the start in 2008, and is scary sharp. He leads a large R&D team working in several fields. Bear in mind that Ted isn’t even employed by PSA, he’s an external consultant on the west coast.
There is no point comparing Ted’s designs with Devialet, Chord or anyone else. Someone above likes Ted’s design because the noise reminds him of reel to reel. Alan Sircom is one industry squawk who thinks Devialet is the leader in clarify and lack of noise and distortion. He recently said about the base model:
“Devialet has made a huge change to its product in the shape of Core Infinity, and it makes the amplifier lead the field in detail retrieval and precision once more. Existing Export owners should make sure their system isn’t pitched into brightness before committing to an upgrade, because they will find the amount of detail on offer an intense experience. But, many will make the change, and make changes to the system because that’s how good the Expert 140 Pro really is.”
The Core Infinity streamer is astonishing for its performance, but also because it’s the size of a playing card and a slot-in upgrade with huge spare processing capacity that is cheap to make. It is not sold alone, but if it was they suggested about €1,300. It took a small team about 3 years to develop it.
Finally, on product design, one of the 3 founders of Devialet is a 40-year veteran product design engineer. My son has just graduated in product design engineering. No one can afford to overlook design, that’s been the case for decades. The new Naim Uniti product range, which I think are radical and fabulous, have been a massive success.
I found them harsh as well, maybe I’m sensitive to certain DACs (Mytek was unlistenable to me also).
I heard Mytek a few times and specially when auditioning Focal headphones it did sound harsh. Many dislike Sabre DAC, and lean towards AKM when it comes to chips as apparently they sound more neutral and warm.
So you think the engineers at Linn, Auralic, Devialet, DcS, Chord etc. are less passionate about what they do? And are they wrong to use the latest microtechnology and have the products fabricated by robots because that gives the best and most reliable product, or should they hire a load of people with soldering irons? By far the most sophisticated product you own is your mobile phone, tell me how that was assembled, and if its the latest iPhone or Samsung it cost about $400 to make.
I’m listening to Devialet now. Have done for almost 3 years. You comments are quite funny. The Devialet base model has distortion a fraction of any Naim amplifier, a damping factor from 10-1,000Hz that never falls below 700. It’s SAM DSP system corrects and extends the bass down using an algorithm measured for whatever speakers you are using.
I have used PSA DAC and regeneration, the latter until very recently, but not changing anything for a long time. Was about to buy a Stellar GCD for my office, but demurred.
ALL much much MUCH smaller companies in comparison to Apple, who gets rid of their headphone jack, so they can sell lightning CRAP headphones or license it. I don’t have a problem buying any of their products, my point was a philosophical one.
Now, you enjoy your Devialet, it wasn’t for me. It may have low noise and high specs, but it sounded HORRIFIC when paired to B&W, I had to leave the room essentially. Maybe your system is more balanced. It specifically and no bottom end, shockingly poor.
I don’t think anyone here really gives a rat’s hiney about a Diavelet anything. They obviously have their customers as well as other hi-fi manufacturers do. None of the smaller companies need you to be a customer. If you like their sound you will support them by purchasing one of their products. There is no sense trying to price shame them just buy what you are happy supporting. I like the personal attention and enthusiasm that smaller companies can generate. PSA has a well respected position in hi-fi audio and I don’t mind paying the price of admission so here I am. Life’s too short to worry about the cost of something you have no intention of buying. The sound is what sells not any measurements in particular.
I was a PS Audio customer and the full UK retail prices I paid for the products I bought would make you fall out of your chair, and there are no dealer discounts here.
I have narrowed down product choice based on measurements. It’s important to me and many others. I then audition, at dealers or at home, with my speakers. That said, I understand why people like the distortion of certain products. Last weekend I turned my Devialet into a Prima Luna Premium using a response published in Stereophile to create an EQ profile in Roon.
My reference to Devialet, as I explained, was not to do with sound quality, but the fundamental issue of inefficiency in hi-end audio. The customer loses out. It started with Ted’s comment that PS Audio had to compromise on output transformers in the DSD DAC because the $300 cost of the ones he would have liked to use would have added $1,500 to the retail price. That’s the reality, I’ve heard it elsewhere, if you think about it too long it’s just mad.
It’s the crazy prices that have made quite a number of manufacturers produce cheaper products, like PSA Stellar, Naim Uniti, Linn Selekt, to great success.
If you are outide the USA, just prey your PSA unit does not need a repair. The best customer service in the world is Amazon. That’s partly why it’s the largest and most successful company in the world. I can get just about anything in 2 - 24 hours at the lowest cost and can send it back without charge or even having to speak to anyone if not completely satisfied. My wife was an Amazon Reseller - unless you have been one you would have no idea how unbelievably efficient the system is.
There is no point comparing Ted’s designs with Devialet, Chord or anyone else. Someone above likes Ted’s design because the noise reminds him of reel to reel.
I think this comparison is a bit unfair. On a reel to reel you can actually hear the noise. Unless you are going direct to your amps without the 20db attenuator, the noise is well below audible.
That’s what the guy said and what the chap Amir also said.
I listen to plenty of vinyl via my Devialet. There is a low level phono noise reduction system in the digital domain, but I think the noise level in vinyl, even though often very minimal as I have a good set-up and my records are ultra clean, is a large part of the vinyl thing (whatever that is). So I can understand where he’s coming from.
Ted’s view is that with his design there is a compromise between noise and sound quality. I don’t agree because the best sound I’ve ever heard, from the DcS Vivaldi system through Wilson speakers, was unbelievably clear and airy with zero noise or audible distortion, it was unnerving. It was just totally real.
That said, there is no compromise in the Vivaldi system, its about $100,000.
What’s more, the music was 16/44 CD (a Linn Vivaldi recording and Nickel Creek).
I realise I’m being unfair on Ted because he has had to compromise for PSA’s commercial reasons.
Oh give me a break! Don’t get me started on how much you have to pay for your fancy jeans that cost a penny to produce, if you want mass produced CRAP, then go buy a Samsung receiver, I am sure it has a bazillion watts a channel, Bluetooth, Airplay, room correction, and 19 channels for $500!
Boutique audio products are expensive, BECAUSE, there’s SO FEW OF US! If you want better prices, PROMOTE High-end audio! Attract YOUNGER crowds, etc… Only way to reduce prices and I sure hope that happens, but I can guarantee you ALL these companies work with super thin margins just to survive in this world of race to the bottom, outsourcing to the cheapest, IP theft, etc and only digital monopolies are making money.
Different designs will succeed in different ways, but if you use the DS with a preamp there is no audible noise. Depending on who is measuring, the noise floor is between 90 and 105db, but if you are listening at 90db you are getting hearing loss. One can make the argument that a high noise floor like this could be detrimental to what you can hear, or not, but if you use a preamp or the attenuator there is no audible noise. I do think less noise can get you better performance, but this is actually above CD quality. Any CD quality source is going to have more (or at very least the same) noise than the DS puts out.
I’ve formed the view that good dynamic range is as much about how much detail you can get without noise at the quietest, rather than the loudest parts of the music. I was listening to Mahler 1 yesterday and it is very apparent in the opening of the first movement. You also need highly resolving speakers, as well as good electronics.
I’ve formed the view that good dynamic range is as much about how much detail you can get without noise at the quietest, rather than the loudest parts of the music.
IMO the DSS is better at resolving low-level stuff than most PCM DACs. But as I said before, it is counterintuitive because the way the DAC works is different from typical PCM-based designs.
And if you have a properly burned in unit, with high quality power cables, high quality power distribution/regenerators, high quality digital sources and cables (I use Shunyata for most of this), the DS Sr sounds phenomenal with a scary deep black background.
It not an accident that the DS retrieves details well, it not encumbered by the inherent non-linearities of PCM. Two points define a line, with PCM there are many levels to get correct or many narrow DACs to average together…
Don’t get me started about jeans. My great-grandfather was the first manufacturer of denim workwear in Europe, and the first to supply it in Africa for the South African gold rush (where he came from), he made a brilliant product and then became the largest supplier of uniforms to the British Army in WWI that had to withstand trench warfare. It remains a well-known global brand.
So I am a believer in good quality affordable products and that includes audio. I don’t believe crap products sell, however cheap. Ask Gerald Ratner.
I have two music-loving kids aged 19 and 22. They love music. One has a decent $1,000 vinyl system, the other $150 active monitors and Chromecast. Not sure where young audiophiles are going to come from.
No manufacturer wants to be a niche business. They want to sell as many products as possible.