@Rudolf_Appel without being a fan boy, I think in the DS PSA is already providing a lot more upgrades than anyone else I can think of – comparing the current fw DS to how it sounded when I got it is a huge improvement, and I have paid $0 for the pleasure. I take your point that people want upgradability, but at some point you run into the limitations of the case / hardware framework.
I’ve heard the Bartok and liked it, but not in my system and not back-to-back with the DS. I’m interested, but similarly skeptical, @smazumder1972, that I would be tempted to part with Bartok for a small-to-medium improvement.
As per @IanB52, I’m interested (and frustrated except that now I’ve just accepted it) to hear that even “high-end” DACs like the Bartok aren’t really at their best until you sort out ethernet / digital source problems. I’ve had similar experiences with my DS, with its overall max performance increasing probably 50% in real terms with adding a P5, a renderer, re-clocked HDMI output, EtherRegen, removing the Bridge, etc. I guess from one perspective this means when I do try a Bartok or Mola Mola (god forbid I ever get my hands on a Rossini) I can hear them at their best; but it also increasingly means we’re doing with digital what our analog buddies have realized for a long time: assembling an interdependent system where everything matters; mikes to mastering, server to DAC, AC to cables.
For me, I think the diminishing returns curve above the DS is very very steep. When I look at speakers, amps, and acoustics the upgrade value prop seems quite a bit more friendly.
I’m not so sure about the diminishing returns curve, it seems like there are linear returns, but on a way bigger price scale.
I do think you are right though, a lot of manufacturers of DACs and digital devices (DCS included) try to sell them as if they are a perfect self-contained system that can’t be bettered with digital sources, etc. But the reality is, digital systems are as indeed as interdependent and complex as analog systems, and everything does matter. I know a lot of people who are still hung up on the old “A properly engineered power supply, digital input, etc is completely impervious to, blah, blah, blah…Bits are bit etc.” But it’s really true that nothing in digital systems is a totally isolated and independent island, and that we are always hearing the whole interactive system.
Hi Chris, I am looking at system options. Space is the issue in my case.
The beauty of the Mola Mola is that it can be purchased as a part (integral) to the Makua Preamp with equally integral (also optional) excellent Phono stage. That combo does the trick for me. Feed it with an Innuos Zenith MKIII and Directly connected by a short good quality Ethernet cable (Atlas Mavros) and the digital chain From server via streamer to DAC is clean. Than that combo leaves me with 5 balanced inputs (all suitable for phono MM or MC or line input) a Toslink optical for the TV with all the sources connected to that via HDMI.
It has 2 pairs of balanced outputs that would go to a pair of active speakers and if you prefer a high quality phono stage.
The only downside of that system is the SACD source. PS Audio delivers with the Perfect Wave SACD Transport together with it’s DACS the best bang for the bucks. But as an alternative I can add the good (not as good) sounding Pioneer USP LX800 which is a compromise on SQ, but adds DVD audio compatibility and the best 4K high contrast movie experience money can buy. The new Oppo. It can be connected via balanced XLR to the analog inputs of the Mola Mola Makua.
A 4 box solution with 2 speakers compared to a 9 box solution when going all PS Audio. Not to mention the cables involved.
Maybe I should be more specific… I find the value curve above the DS quite steep within the range I can afford : ) I definitely hear the difference when moving up tens of thousands of dollars (i.e. Rossini, CH Precision C1, etc.).
“But the reality is, digital systems are as indeed as interdependent and complex as analog systems, and everything does matter.” Well said @IanB52
I definitely understand the box/cable count constraint. The Innuos > Makua > active speaker seems like a potentially great system.
How many SACDs do you have? Given that there are apparently ways to get them ripped, and play DSFs through the Innuos > Makua, I would seriously consider that if box count is critical for you. If video quality is important as well, I would include the Pioneer as a CD and DVD transport into the Makua, and get your SACDs onto the Innuos.
Thanks for the feedback. I actually only Own a handful. But I like spinning the discs. Nostalgia perhaps, I just can’t loose the impression it sounds better.
Thanks for mentioning the ripping. That is a really good suggestion.
Now we also get to the point why I very much fancy PS Audio’s Octave Music. Believing Paul’s announcements also on Video, Octave Music will like Blue Coast Music sell top DSD recordings. Having heard (owning) a couple of Gus Skinnas mastered music pieces I have no doubt Octave Music will deliver good music.
I find the Pioneer a good option. It’s SQ is rather decent and gives me the feeling I am not limited in playing disc formats. High res from Blu Ray seems also to sound good and I have the option to watch concert recordings in decent sound.
So I am curious how Octave develops. It’s just announced So there will be more to come.
Should have added that I only stream my music so I tested with Tidal, Qobuz, Roon, DSD on my bad and I also compared its streaming input vs streaming to my Aries G2 connect to the DAC.
This has been done in the past by various people and the general consensus was that if you already like what the ds does then you won’t find the Bartok an improvement, in fact someone even sent theirs back iirc.
I haven’t tried a dCS Bartok in my system but have tried others. I have listened to multiple dCS products in systems that I’m familiar with and think they are some of the best digital products going. I don’t have a dCS dealer near me so getting a home demo is tough. I’m also in the process of looking for a DAC.
If you purchase a Bartok, I’m sure you will love it.
I tried. It is surely better than DS. But not that good to justify extra $7.5k.
I tried Rossini. There u start seeing real difference. But it is $24k. But to me if one can that difference is justified.
My opinion wud be better option is to front DS Sr with a good streaming platform like dCS bridge or Aries G1 or Naim NDX2/ND5S2. Any of these with DS Sr will beat Bartok at similar price range (little less actually).
So let me ask this question. If one were to be ambivalent regarding cost differences, would you go with a Bartok, or a dCS Network Bridge driving a Yggy? I have a good pre-amp, a Pass XP-22 already.
No worries. We all are providing our subjective thoughts. I don’t think any of us have the right answers, just our thoughts on how we think it sounded in our rooms and our systems.
I think you might be right on the general consensus in this forum I also think this forum is somewhat bias toward ps audio equipment. I’ve been researching other DACs, so I’ve been cruising other forums and it seems like many people had the DSD in the past and are now using other DACs with great results. That’s not a knock against the DSD, I’m an owner of one and I think it’s great. I don’t think it’s the be all end all but that’s the fun thing about this hobby.
In my opinion I would either go with the Bartok or get a streamer like the Aries G2 and a Mola Mola Tambaqui. I haven’t heard the Mola Mola but the reviews on the forums and the professional reviews are great. The subjective reviews also line up with the measurements at ASR. I think it’s like the third best measuring DAC they’ve ever tested. You could probably get a used Aries and a Tambaqui for the price of the bartok. Just my two cents.
If u r not interested about the PreAmp feature I would say u must also consider these 2 options -
Naim NDX2. It is an excellent streaming platform and Dac. Only thing is they do not have a Balanced output. But u can get Din to RCA from Naim. I right now use the same with my pre-amp. It is an excellent Dac. U can also upgrade later with out board power supply if u want.
MSB Discreet with Power Base and Network Renderer. The N/W Renderer can be used as Roon endpoint. Later on u can also upgrade this to MSB Premier with the differential cost of the Premier. You can get all these almost at the same ball park of Bartok. Also u can get a free of cost demo at home.
I’ve heard nothing but good things about the MSB. I’ve narrowed my search down to the Tambaqui and the MSB Direct or Premier. Do you know how to access the no cost demo. I did a dealer search but all the results point to a single msb employee.
