I have had a lot of issues with incompatible sensitivity between source, preamp and power amp, so gain is surely a factor.
Also, I have conducted a couple of informal A/B listening tests between direct connection and with a preamp in the loop and all listeners preferred the preamp route (not saying that the direct connection is bad. It defends its merits and excels in certain areas).
Don’t overlook that every additional imperfect component in the signal chain also adds another set of imperfect wires and connectors. The best systems I have ever heard have had a rock-bottom minimum number of devices in the daisy-chain of distortion-adding boxes.
Anything that you use to compensate for an audio issue will also have undesirable side-effects - guaranteed.
We understand; your mind is made up.
There are two issues that come to mind: gain (which has already been mentioned) and the other is cable capacitance.
With respect to gain, there’s a “best” sensitivity of amp to use with the DS direct: you need enough headroom to have dynamic music (even on your louder tracks) but also enough sensitivity that you aren’t using the volume control far from 100 a lot of the time. Obviously if your music collection has tracks that are significantly different in loudness or dynamic range or if the amp isn’t sensitive enough or is way too sensitive you’ll probably want a preamp.
With cables that have too high of a capacitance there are FR response issues with almost any source. With most sources high capacitance implies a high frequency rolloff, but at times the transformer output of the DS can interact with cable capacitance to add a little high frequency boost. In an already existent system that already has high capacitance cables but is otherwise balanced changing from some other DAC to a DS may make quite a difference in the very top of the audio band. Either a rolloff or a boost of the highs could be beneficial in some setups, but in general, average to lower capacitance cables will be better with the DS or you’ll need a preamp to drive/buffer a higher capacitance or long run cables after the DS.
My counter argument to the minimalist point of view is that “Why should you expect a $6000 preamp in a $6000 DAC for free?” We don’t always build our systems from whole cloth where we might have the opportunity to find a set of components with no interface issues: a preamp is a good thing to have on hand for the cases where other factors like gain mismatch or cable length or… get in the way of a well balanced system.
Given a particular amp the DS could be designed so that you probably wouldn’t want a preamp - and similarly given the DS an amp could be designed so you probably don’t want a preamp, but in real life, as all things in audiophile land, you’ll need to listen for yourself to different setups and make up your own mind.
Ted Smith said . . . but in real life, as all things in audiophile land, you'll need to listen for yourself to different setups and make up your own mind.The one absolute truth in this hobby.
I’m thinking of getting a balanced power amp with which I’d use my new DSJr as a preamp. Any power amp suggestions that would be a particularly good match?
I wanted to harness the extra “oomph” I believed was lurking in the balanced output of the DirectStream and rather than change amps (something that is not going to happen any time soon, I love my amp) I put a Decware ZBIT in between the DirectStream and the amp and really love the results. The Jensen transformers are very transparent and with great cabling I can choose to vary the volume with the ZBIT or the DirectStream and really enjoy the bit of body and heft that I receive from the balanced outputs.
http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZBIT.html
With the ZBIT I am very happy using the DirectStream as a preamp. I prefer this to using another preamp in between teh DirectStream and amp.
Michael said I'm thinking of getting a balanced power amp with which I'd use my new DSJr as a preamp. Any power amp suggestions that would be a particularly good match?What's your budget?
A balanced power amp. . .here’s the one I would get if I were in the market and could afford it. . . .
I wish that Steve Deckert’s description didn’t sound so much like hype. . . .I know from many user reviews this is a spectacular amp: the Decware “Zen Mystery Amp.”
http://www.decware.com/newsite/MYSTERY.html
And there’s this professional review:
http://www.tonepublications.com/review/decware-zen-mystery-amp/
I’d love to hear it paired with the Decware balanced ZTPRE preamp in my system. Decware pre-amplification and amplification have been excellent partners with PS Audio sources and power regeneration and power cables in my systems for five years.
Paul McGowan said
I'm thinking of the BHK 250 but that price range would probably be the upper end.Michael said I'm thinking of getting a balanced power amp with which I'd use my new DSJr as a preamp. Any power amp suggestions that would be a particularly good match?What's your budget?
I’m using a Primaluna Dialogue HP tube integrated with the DSJr now, with great results. I use high-efficiency speakers at the moment but that won’t always be the case, so I want to keep options open. My biggest concern is that i have plenty of gain; I’m one of those guys that likes to listen at “10 or 11 on the dial” - it’s a psychological things from the 1970s, I guess…
I could always get a pre-power combo but I’m intrigued by the idea of the DSJr as a preamp. Fact is, I wouldn’t necessarily need to use the balanced connectors…single ended is ok too.
That would be a great combo IMHO. I would start with the idea of DSJ direct, but would certainly counsel you to go balanced. You should have plenty of gain.
Michael saidThe DSJ is OK as a pre-amp, not that I use mine as a pre-amp. The tactile feedback of the volume knob on DSJ gives you an ethereal connection to the device as a pre-amp. I use single ended (AQ Coral) and balanced (PS Audio Statement) both 5m long and there is no discernible difference in sonics between either connection method. So yeah, I agree, single ended is OK too. I needed to throw a lot of money at an IC cable choice before I noticed a readily discernible difference in sonics, that being Crystal Cable Ultra Diamond (which is a level down from their insanely unaffordable reference IC).I'm intrigued by the idea of the DSJr as a preamp. Fact is, I wouldn't necessarily need to use the balanced connectors...single ended is ok too.
I don’t think anyone has mentioned that you may want to listen to other gear on your system than the DSD. A preamp is handy when this is the case. I have the DSD that is awesome; I’m driving some big Manley amps and its doing a great job with plenty of gain. If I get anyway near 100 on the volume it’s because the digital’s level is low.
Hi Ted, I’ve just joined the forum and just purchased a PWD Mk2 + Bridge II + DSD Snr Upgrade Kit. Can’t wait for it to arrive end of this week.
A question about gain. My understanding is there are 4 gain (output voltages) settings available on the DSD Snr. Low RCA, low XLR, high RCA and high XLR. Is that correct?
Also, regarding “but also enough sensitivity that you aren’t using the volume control far from 100 a lot of the time”, what do you mean here about “far from 100 a lot of the time” just so I better understand this.
And what is “enough sensitivity” for a power amp matched with the DSD Snr, in terms of a range? Or is this too dependant on speaker sensitivity and music loudness/dynamic range?
Many thanks in advance. I’m slowly catching up on all the DSD related forum posts.
Cheers, Sean.
I guess you could think of XLR and RCA as two different gain levels, but that depends on the amp or preamp’s input design. They may be the same.
If you almost always listen at 90 - 100, you might find that you don’t have enough volume on some quietly recorded sources for the music to be really dynamic. And conversely if you hardly ever get the volume above say, 40, you may find that you can’t make the DS quiet enough for some loudly recorded music to be comfortable.
The best way to know how all of this might work out in a particular system is simply to try it. In many cases personal preference trumps a simple formula… In some systems the difference between a specific preamp and using the DS direct are so small that the convenience of one over the other makes your choice for you. In other systems the audible difference may be large enough to encourage you to compromise a little, e.g. get a preamp when you’d rather not have one, or say go around your preamp when you might prefer using a preamp.
I hope you enjoy your DS.
[superfluous quote deleted]
Thanks Ted, this clears it all up for me. Can’t wait for the DS to arrive 
i have tried DS without preamp and preferred with a preamp, more body and natural. For the moment the preamp part of a rega elicit… i am waiting for listen a bhk preamp.
Well I came in today and I think my Cary slp98p pre power supply went on the fritz. So I figured I would just connect my DS straight to my sunfire signature amp. I was expecting something a little thinner. A little less three dimensional. Wow was I surprised. Seems like better bass… quieter… uh just really good. Very deep and three dimensional. A nice warm sound as well.
The sunfire has an input impedance of 24k ohms. The DS direct really seems to bring it to the party.
I will have to a/b with the Cary when I get it fixed. I am a bit stunned as the Cary was quite a leap forward in depth and body when I got it.
Any comments or opinions on ‘why the synergy’ are welcome…
I do not recall anyone coming up with a consistent explanation as to why some setups sound best with a preamp; others, without.
Your experience is a great example of why one should simply try and see which is best.
I guess I bring up my scenario as I think it is possibly a good learning point for some. And for some not so much. :).
When I bought the Cary about 6 years ago it was listed at 800 ohm - and I knew of the rule for impedance matching mentioned in Paul’s post the other day. So since this experience I dug a little deeper and found this snippet from JA on the slp98:
The output impedance in the midrange and treble was usefully low, at 370 ohms, but this rose at 20Hz to 6.8k ohms, due to the limited size of the output coupling capacitors. This will prematurely and audibly roll off the bass with power amplifiers having an input impedance of much less than 20k ohms.
Now my amp is @24k ohms.
Paul - any comments on this? What is the impedance on the DS?