Dschamis, to Elk’s point a lot depends on other factors. Which speakers will you use and what is their sensitivity (efficiency)? Will you employ powered subs in your system? How big is your room? What type of music do you listen to and how loud to you listen? What is the quality of the AC power in your listening room and local area?
All of these factors contribute to which PS Audio gear will serve you best. There is no doubt, for example, the BHK 300 monos will sound better than the BHK 250 stereo amp. Then again if you have powered subs, a small room and/or listen to jazz at low to moderate listening levels, do you spend half as much on amplifcation and buy a BHK Pre and/or P10 instead? At the end of the day these are personal decisions.
My PS Audio journey led me to the DS DAC and PWT paired and running directly to a Krell Evo 2250e amp with B&W 804D2s speakers and DB1 sub. When the BHK 250 stereo came out, I bought a beta model. It out performed the Krell in many ways. The most interesting were the highs. The BHK is just as extended but much, much smoother on top. Next came a P10. Wow, lower noise floor allowing more details to emerge from a seeming black background. Next up was a BHK Pre. Wow, again, this time in the form of increased dynamics, detail and imaging. Finally, the PWT was switched out for a DMP. Can CD or SACD sound get any better than this was my first question. With the addition of Huron software, the answer was a resounding YES!!! The B&W speakers were switched to Paradigms along the way.
No matter what you decide, rest assured you are headed down the right path with PS Audio DirectStream, BHK and Power Regenerator gear. After nearly 30 years of owning various mid-fi, Naim, Ayre, Esoteric, Krell, Wadia, and Gamut gear, it is very obvious the current top PS Audio range gets one closer to the music!
I am thinking of pairing this with either Focal Sopra #2 or Sopra #3 speakers. Its a pretty big room (30x15 or so) and I mostly listen to rock with the occasional classical sprinkled in.
I am leaning towards the DAC w/o the Pre and the BHK 300 amps (instead of the 250). This way I have plenty of room for future upgrades (P10, BHK Pre, etc.) and will never regret anything (yeah right). Then the last big decision is the Sopra #2 vs #3. I was at my dealer today who was actually trying to talk me out of the #3, although I think he was assuming that there would then be more budget to spend on other things (which is true but not from him because I’m going to order the PS Audio gear direct).
Focal makes great speakers! Have not had the privilege of hearing the Sopra line but do love their house sound. Always been a sucker for a midrange driver on top. They look great and are built well too. If you listen to a lot of rock in a 15’ by 30’ room, the Sopra #3 might be the right choice with twin 8" woofers.
Noting the various systems of contributors on this forum, it looks like the BHK 300 monos are more popular with those who don’t have subs or powered speakers. If you don’t get subs initially, bigger speakers and mono amps would provide more bass and a bigger sound stage for sure. In that case, once you have the speakers and the equipment you want, try out a pair of Focal, JL Audio or Rel subs later to see what you think. Just make sure you are prepared to buy them in case they blow your socks off!?
Its funny, I’ve never been a big fan of subs in a 2-channel music system. I’d much rather have better front speakers that can handle the bass. Also, for this room, the number of items is a consideration because I am currently (and hope to stay permanently) married.
I have gone back and forth over the years: pre, no pre. And the PWD sounded SO good straight into my amps (it’s a bit higher gain helped) that I didn’t try the DS with a preamp for a long time.
It takes a really good preamp to “make the difference” has been my experience. I sometimes listened to the single-ended DS output through my Decware CSP2+ preamp which with the right tube complement was an improvement. I ended up preferring the balanced output of the DS into a Decware ZBIT (a component that pairs a Jensen 1:1 transformer to convert the full balanced output of the DS into a single-ended output for my amp, attenuate by a stepped attenuator) due to the increased voltage.
Then this week I installed my dream preamp: the Decware ZTPRE. This fully balanced minimalist six tube preamp has taken my system and the DS output up a notch. With top of the line Stradivarius cables from VooDoo Cable (two Amati XLR from the DS, and one Cremona single-ended RCA from the ZBIT to the amp) all the goodness of the DS is wonderfully portrayed and presented to my amps. Either via speakers or headphones my system has never sounded better. So for me the answer is now firmly: DS will be used with preamp. I can imagine I’d come to the same conclusion with the BHK preamp.
When using a preamp it is generally best to set the DS to 100. There might be an exception if the preamp volume control has a sweet spot that makes a significant difference but I would think that is a rare exception.
I agree, in general the DS would be set at 100. Though it has a digital volume control and I haven’t noticed ANY degradation of the signal when the volume is above 70 or so.
As for the question of excellent cables with the DS as a preamp and lesser cables and a preamp. . .that is so system and component and cable dependent it’s hard to say which would be best. . . .
Just when I thought my BHK Pre was a godsend because it transformed the DS sound of Huron into something wonderful (see my heartfelt July 31 and Aug 1 posts, which I still hold true), the new DS firmware Redcloud has me scratching my head. Why does Redcloud sound so much better in my system without the Pre? The Pre gave dimension and palpability to Huron, but Redcloud is so alive and realistic that I’m finding the Pre makes the sound too rounded and less holographic in my system. Something just isn’t right. The Pre is supposed to enhance the sound and listening experience, right? Maybe with Redcloud the stock tubes are not the right ingredient in my audio chain. I will try a variety of different tubes and see what that yields. Meanwhile, Redcloud without the Pre is the best sound I’ve heard and felt from my system to date. The ability of DS Redcloud to sound phenomenal with or without Pre speaks highly of how advanced PS Audio technology and Ted’s firmware have become.
Have any others in the forum done a Pre and no-Pre comparison with DS Redcloud in your system? What are your perceptions? Are there particular tubes that you find work optimally with the BHK Pre and DS Redcloud? I know that BHK Pre tube-rolling is the subject of another forum topic and extensive discussion belongs there, but it is hard to not touch on tubes when considering how the BHK Pre responds to Redcloud vs Huron, since tubes have a significant impact on developing the character of the sound, and Huron and Redcloud have somewhat different sound characters.
Just when I thought my BHK Pre was a godsend because it transformed the DS sound of Huron into something wonderful (see my heartfelt July 31 and Aug 1 posts, which I still hold true), the new DS firmware Redcloud has me scratching my head. Why does Redcloud sound so much better in my system without the Pre? The Pre gave dimension and palpability to Huron, but Redcloud is so alive and realistic that I’m finding the Pre makes the sound too rounded and less holographic in my system. Something just isn’t right. The Pre is supposed to enhance the sound and listening experience, right? Maybe with Redcloud the stock tubes are not the right ingredient in my audio chain. I will try a variety of different tubes and see what that yields. Meanwhile, Redcloud without the Pre is the best sound I’ve heard and felt from my system to date. The ability of DS Redcloud to sound phenomenal with or without Pre speaks highly of how advanced PS Audio technology and Ted’s firmware have become.
Have any others in the forum done a Pre and no-Pre comparison with DS Redcloud in your system? What are your perceptions? Are there particular tubes that you find work optimally with the BHK Pre and DS Redcloud? I know that BHK Pre tube-rolling is the subject of another forum topic and extensive discussion belongs there, but it is hard to not touch on tubes when considering how the BHK Pre responds to Redcloud vs Huron, since tubes have a significant impact on developing the character of the sound, and Huron and Redcloud have somewhat different sound characters.
Interesting observations for sure. I installed RC and a couple days later received the BHK preamp, which I bought more to reduce the DS baseline noise and gain analog inputs, rather than looking for big sonic improvement. At this point I haven’t gone back to “no preamp” so I’ll have to do some further comparisons as you suggest. I did have a listening session a couple nights ago that made me wonder whether the preamp caused a step back though.
The only music I listen to are from two digital sources (DS Memory Player and Pink Faun computer card) both outputting I2s to the DS DAC. So with I2s the DAC is getting the cleanest digital signal without digital format conversion before Redcloud performs its magic and the DAC outputs analog. Perhaps I would experience a benefit of the Preamp with other kinds of sources. The DS Memory Player and DAC Redcloud are a match made in heaven, yielding an output that in my system with my particular amps and speakers requires no further enhancement. I say that now, but maybe the right tube in the Preamp will change my opinion.
MrDerrick, regarding decoupling: I have tried over the years dozens of expensive highly-touted decoupling devices and have never even heard a subtle change in the sound of components, preamps, amps and speakers in my system. Hearing no differences, I quit spending money on decoupling devices and just use the ones I have that look good and offer good support for my equipment. For the BHK Pre I use its stock feet on its own independent MDF shelf that is heavy and solid. I do not stack the PS Audio DSMP, DS DAC and BHK Pre. They are separated and have their own shelves. Solid steel legs support the shelves and rest on steel plates with special acoustic material sandwiched between. The acoustic plates also keep the leg feet from damaging the finish of the thick hardwood floor. Because the Pre had no coupling issues with Huron, I do not suspect a coupling issue with Redcloud. Though I cannot imagine a better sound now than without the Pre, it won’t stop me from experimenting with different tubing and cabling to see if the Pre can beat the no-Pre performance. I have in my collection Siemens-Halske CCa, Amperex 7316, and Tungsram PCC88. It will take a lot of time to burn-in and evaluate these, but as you say, “you just never know until you give it a try.”
MrDerrick, your mention of Stillpoints piqued my interest, so I researched online. Seems nearly everyone who has used them in their system has great things to say, such as “increased focus and clarity,” “sounds bigger and bolder,” “bigger soundstage,” and “change in sound from laid back to upfront.” But Redcloud has done that in spades in my system, so I don’t think I need additional reinforcement of those particular sound attributes. I’m glad I don’t, because the cost of Stillpoints is staggering! They are beautiful machined pieces and probably do perform well in some people’s systems. I am interested in what others say Stillpoints has achieved in their systems, particularly in conjunction with PS Audio components.
Today I replaced the BHK Pre stock tubes with Amperex 6917 and I’m loving the Pre again. The 6917 is a good match with Redcloud. I’m still torn between Pre and No-pre. As the 6917s break-in I will be interested to see which sound wins out in my system. Right now I could go either way, as the sound is similarly beautiful, but I have a slight preference for No-pre as it is a tad more transparent and expansive. For better or worse, the Pre seems to “tighten up” the sound stage a bit, shrinking its width and advancing it very slightly, but at the same time imparting a sense of control to the imagery. This perception is subtle, and could change as the tubes settle in. The difference between the two could also be the effect of another pair of interconnects with the Pre in the audio chain. I will try different interconnects to see how the sound is affected.
JosephLG said
I am interested in what others say Stillpoints has achieved in their systems, particularly in conjunction with PS Audio components.
Stillpoints work brilliantly. I was first introduced to this vibration control technology when I worked with electron microscopes. They are mounted on slabs and floated to keep them absolutely still.
I do not believe vibration control can be over done. Vibration only adds smear and otherwise prevents components from working their best.
Elk, I just added 1.5" concrete slabs adhered to 0.5" cork resting on the heavy mdf shelves under my PS Audio equipment. I had those materials in the closet from previous setups. Now the stock rubber feet sit on concrete. I don’t hear any difference in the sound resulting from that back-straining exercise. I think any vibration would be coming from within the equipment. If so, would a vibration drain like Stillpoints be beneficial to PS Audio DS MP, DAC and BHK Pre?
How is the PS Audio source and Pre equipment supported in Music Room One? Stock rubber feet?