DS vs DS + BHK Pre

I do not know if it would help, but my guess is yes.

Vibration is a mystery to me, both a to the source of the vibration and why what works, works.

Perhaps someone from PS Audio can advise on how the source and pre components in Music Room One are supported, and what their experimentation with feet during the design stages has concluded.

I was reading a lot of people saying with the RC update that going directly from dac to power amp sounds better than with former firmware so I tested it out for myself. I am currently using a Esoteric C-02 preamp going into a Esoteric A-02 power amp, both solid state components and I can tell you it doesn’t matter what firmware, it doesn’t sound nearly as good without the preamp in place. Without the preamp, the soundstage collapsed, the air and dimension of instrument is practically gone, the whole sound is more two dimensional in comparison. I think that if you turn down the volume on the dac you do drop a lot of bits and do lose some information to the signal. I was running the dac mosley at upper 60’s to middle 70’s for volume. I can’t figure it out any other way. It should sound better without another component in the chain to degrade the signal, but I seem to sound more real and involving with the preamp in. By the way, I did use a Bruce Moore Companion 3 before, which is a tubed unit, and it also was better with it in place, but not nearly to the same degree as the Esoteric, which did cost me quite a bit at 24k, but it simply outperformed every preamp I have tried. I was using the same power amp and cables through all of this, so nothing is added to the equation. Maybe when the dac gets better than the preamp, then it is better without the preamp.

I just went to try another experiment and set the volume of my dac at 72 and turn up my preamp to compensate, and it does lose a bit of clarity compare to setting the dac full on at 100 and turning down the preamp. Has anyone ever try it with their system? It does seem to lose a bit if you turn down the volume digitally no matter what they say.

JosephLG said

Perhaps someone from PS Audio can advise on how the source and pre components in Music Room One are supported, and what their experimentation with feet during the design stages has concluded.


I do not know, but my guess is only the stock rubber feet were used in design. I also suspect the stock feet are used in their listening room.

I do not think of vibration control as tuning, but rather as getting any component to sound its best. Stillpoints work well for any component. A good rack similarly works well for any piece of kit.

Elk said

Stillpoints work brilliantly. I was first introduced to this vibration control technology when I worked with electron microscopes. They are mounted on slabs and floated to keep them absolutely still.

I do not believe vibration control can be over done. Vibration only adds smear and otherwise prevents components from working their best.


My vibration control tweak of choice is Aurios Media Isolation Bearings, sadly they are no longer produced. They too were supposedly first used for isolating electron microscopes. They certainly look simpler than Stillpoints and cost a lot less, at least they did when available. You could get a set of three Aurios for $200 or so, less when on sale. A set of Stillpoints Ultra Minis goes for $375 and discounts are hard to come by. I use two sets of Aurios right now, but need a third set for the BHK Pre now. Missed a set of Aurios on Audiogon recently, phooey!

Now, the real question. Aside from racing cars and motorcycles, playing classical music semi-professionally, legal work, and forum cat herder extraordinaire; when did you find time to work with electron microscopes?

I don’t use Stillpoints but rather VooDoo Cable Iso-Pods which share a similar design and theory of operation. i love them. My components sit on top of these Iso-Pods which are placed on PS Audio PowerBases. The two combine to defeat smearing and create a very open sound.

Pmotz, there is a set of Aurios on ebay at the moment. I have a set under one component in my second system. Nice stuff.

In response to Clifton, it’s obviously very system dependent: characteristics and tonality of amps, sensitivity and tonality of loudspeakers, length and tonality of interconnects, power cords, power supply conditioner, personal appreciation of how the Pre influences the sound, etc. In my system (after Redcloud) there’s no sound stage collapse, diminished dynamics, or diminished anything without the Pre. The great thing about the BHK Pre is that if you don’t like its particular sound you can simply change the tubes to another brand. With Amperex 6917 longplate instrument tubes, for example, the Pre virtually disappears in my system and I’m hearing the differences when I swap interconnects. I have never heard such a transparent preamp. Rather than hearing the preamp, I’m hearing the cables!

You are right JosephLG, the BHK pre is one formidable unit as it can show differences in every change you put before it. I also hear not only more air and dimension with my preamp in, but more power and realistic it produces a note, much like when I compare a passive preamp to a powered preamp. I do amit tubes in amps and preamps can enhance or put more bloom to the picture when I heard my friend’s Lamm power amps when he change the stock tubes to Bugle Boy Amperex.

EWe don’t use any special vibration damping feet or equipment in Music Room One. We work hard at keeping tweaks and modifiers to an absolute minimum since, as I am certain most of you know, Music Room One is first and foremost a reference lab. Our cables are chosen for their neutrality and revealing nature - nothing gained, nothing lost. Etc.

Aurios are wonderful. I have a couple of sets.

For those willing to do some very simple DIY. You may approach, and possibly exceed, the benefit of the “expensive spread” for hundreds less per component.

From 2009 Stereophile Forum;

https://www.stereophile.com/content/seriously-good-isolation-your-system-no-expensive-high-end-racks-bits-bobs-needed-1

The article from which he got this idea;

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/about.htm

Have fun, enjoy your music more, and save hundreds to thousands.

Bruce

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Elk said

Stillpoints work brilliantly. I was first introduced to this vibration control technology when I worked with electron microscopes. They are mounted on slabs and floated to keep them absolutely still.

I do not believe vibration control can be over done. Vibration only adds smear and otherwise prevents components from working their best.


+1

Dr. W, thank you for those interesting and enlightening reference articles about bike inner tubes and cups with ball bearings. You and all those Stillpoints fans got me thinking obsessively about supports. Darn you! wink While I am not inclined to put bicycle inner tubes under my equipment (I have enough worry to keep my car tires properly inflated), you did remind me that I had buried in the closet several sets of Boston Audio Design TuneBlocks XT (the ones with tungsten carbide ball bearings) that I purchased many years ago, but didn’t know what to do with at the time. I almost sold them on Ebay a few days ago. Tonight, I said to myself, “What the heck, I got 'em. Might as well pluck three of them under the BHK Pre and see if I hear any difference.” Well, not expecting to hear any difference, I did hear a difference! A good one. clapping_gif Improved accuracy, instrument focus and timbral nuances and cleaner bass. Now, since I have them, I’m going to try TuneBlocks XT under the DAC and MP and see what that does. Then maybe the big amps, although they would probably require 4 blocks each due to their weight. I’ll leave the TuneBlocks under the Pre for sure, but only under the other components if improved sound is definitely discernible.

TuneBlocks have good reviews and are much cheaper than Stillpoints. At least one reviewer preferred TuneBlocks to Stillpoints. It’s all system dependent, of course. In my case, I’m resting the TuneBlocks on a 1-1/2" thick concrete tile over 1/2" thick cork over 3/4" MDF shelves. TuneBlocks on just MDF might or might not be as effective.

One thing worries me with ball bearings or any other minimum contact supports. In Southern California we have earthquake tremors, and an occasional jolt. I wouldn’t want my precious equipment rolling off their supports and crashing to the floor, damaging both the equipment and the floor. Ouch! So, I have to come up with some kind of safety retainer to restrain components if they move too far. Maybe clips screwed to the edges of the shelves would work. Actually, the equipment due to mass inertia would try to stay in the same place–it would be the floor and equipment stand that would be moving relative to the equipment. The heavy equipment with proper restraints would act like a mass damper to hopefully keep the stand from falling over.

Do not rule out also applying the same technique to your speakers.

Stillpoints recommends doing your speakers first, then the other components.

Correct. Stillpoints also recommends doing the amps before the pre and source components. I’m not sure I agree with starting downstream and working your way upstream. I think it is very system dependent. I would rather start with the preamp and lighter components, which are more economical and easy to experiment with. It seems better to get rid of vibrational noise early in the signal path before it is amplified. Having said that, my loudspeakers were the first components I addressed. Even though resonance control is built into the cabinet construction and the speakers were custom-designed and tuned by Albert von Schweikert to the satisfaction of his critical ears, I have them heavy brass-spike footed on 4" thick hard maple slabs supported at the floor by TunePlates. This is not so much to drain vibrations from the speaker electronics as to limit vibrations coming from the floor into the speakers and to give rock-solid stability to the speaker cabinets. I haven’t done anything with the monoblock amps other than 2" thick MDF shelves on steel rack supported on TunePlates at the floor. I would not think 80 to over 100-pound amps as expensive and well-built as Pass Labs and PS Audio top-of-line monoblocks would need component vibration drain supports. Surely Nelson Pass, BHK and other designers would incorporate such foot features already, if needed, in pursuit of the world’s best sounding amps! Or maybe hard rubber supports sound better to their ears than tungsten or ceramic ball bearings? But that’s another debate.

To complete the experiment with TuneBlocks, I added them under the MP and DAC. I heard no difference in the sound quality or character, so the stock feet and underlying support shelves must be fine. I’ll leave the TuneBlocks under the Pre where I did perceive an improvement. The question still remains: does the system sound better with or without the Preamp? The jury is still out. The verdict will probably depend on what tube is finally selected.

After several weeks of tube rolling and critical listening, I’ve finally concluded that the BHK Pre with certain tubes sounds better in my system than no-Pre. The sound is excellent with or without the Pre, but the Pre with certain tubes noticeably improves the clarity, presence and tonal character of the sound of my system. The bad news is that the tubes I like the most (early Siemens-Halske) are rare and expensive. But that doesn’t mean the stock tubes or other tubes won’t sound wonderful in other people’s systems.

Thanks for posting!

I’ve been without my BHK preamp for ~3 weeks. It’s on it’s way back to me, expected Monday.

Thanks to Scott and the team of technicians for perservering through these unique times affecting everyone and particularly the supply chain of spare parts.

The DS and preamp have been in my system for nearly 3 years. I’m seemingly wholly and woefully completely dependent on music in my life. There are worse problems :wink:

For about 10 days I ran the DS direct to M700 for the first time. Hey, this doesn’t sound bad but it’s different. It’s taken me the full 10 days to fully realize it’s the lack of ‘life’ from the lower mids on down to the lowest notes.

…and another really fun thing happened while waiting for the preamp to return. A BHK 250 replaced the M700. I’ve had it 5 days now with the DS direct. It really was the missing piece in my lopsided system. I’m now realizing much more audible differences between various versions of tracks along with a significantly wider, deeper and cohesive stage. Very natural sounding. The top end kills the M700.

I do notice the noise floor going direct to either amp even with low sensitivity <85dB/w/m but quite a flat impedance curve - https://audiofi.net/2015/03/atc-scm11v2-just-the-truth/

I’m looking forward to listening with the preamp back in the chain. If I’d never had the BHK preamp I’d never have known what I was missing and may have lived happily ever after but oh boy am I happy I didn’t miss out. I’m not a betting man but I’d bet at least 25c the pre and amp are going to mate well.

Be well

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Before I owned a BHK preamp, I ran my DSD directly into a BHK 250, using a modest set of ic’s. One day I decided to try a pair of $3,000 Transparent ic’s, and was shocked at how much better my system sounded. I was close to pulling the trigger on the Transparent ic’s, but was talked off the ledge by Dirk. He suggested I try the BHK preamp for that kind of money, so I did. Having spent over 3k for the preamp, I didn’t have much left in the budget for a second set of ic’s, so ended up buying a modest pair of Audio Sensibility ic’s. The end result was I now have a much more musicality satisfying system, vs running direct with a 3k set of ic’s.