Streamers are no more inherently noise free than other sources.
Streamers can connect to a DAC with any connection.
A streamer is fundamentally a PC (or MAC…) with specialized software (and perhaps specialized hardware.)
They often perform better than a general purpose PC or MAC since they don’t have software that isn’t needed running and (usually) more care is taken when choosing components and other hardware. But this isn’t guaranteed.
Read nothing into the fact that I don’t use a streamer, I simply don’t need one to test my DACs and I don’t like their user interfaces. For my system I use all manner of programs (some I write myself) to send audio to my DACs. A streamer would only complicate things more
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I too just connect a USB Cable direct from the DSD Sr. to my Windows 10 PC with Audirvana but I use the beta DLNA function which uses the PCM I2S # 2 input via the HDMI —> I2S boards plugged into my Sony UBP-X10000ES. I find the I2S has better audio than the USB even though Ted claims they should be the same. I blame Placebo effect. USB is only for Video Streaming Services (Amazon Prime, Netflix, YouTube) in my Rig.
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The problems of usb are well known and dealt with quite effectively by many devices. I have an Innuos Zen Mk3 that has a separate linear power supply for the usb output (the only outputs are ethernet and usb) and gives an entirely satisfactory result.
The Aries G1 and G2 streamers also have power-optimised usb output and users here have commented how good they are. For some years I used an Auralic Aries that did a good job of reclocking usb (I used it wirelessly most of the time), they discontinued it for the G1 the is better and not much more expensive.
For those determined to use a computer, the Innuos Phoenix seems to be the current ultimate solution. They just took the usb part of the Innuos Statement and put it in a box. It has two internal linear power supplies (like the Zen Mk3), one dedicated to the usb chip and the other to the OCXO reclocker.
The ultimate solution is the dCS Bridge, which has been the best streamer for years. Has SPDIF and AES/EBU outputs and is a Roon Ready do-everything streamer. It has a usb input for attaching a hard drive music store. dCS do not consider either usb or toslink to be up to be good enough outputs.
So for people who think their systems are sufficiently high quality that a standard usb source is not good enough, there are plenty of solutions around, although they do focus on having network storage and using AES/EBU or SPDIF inputs.
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I use my standard iMac in the Office (which runs 7x24) as Roon core in combination with the Sonore opticalRendu and a decent USB cable. opticalRendu is using a Sbooster linear power supply. No need for special Ethernet tweaking, the critical part is the conversion from Ethernet to USB which happens inside the opticalRendu. Perfect galvanic isolation. Runs like a charm.
How do you know the dCS Network Bridge is the ultimate solution? Have you heard the Aries 2 or 2.1 or the Lumin U1? Also universal praise.
Every review I’ve read about the Signature Rendu Optical says it’s the best solution the reviewer has ever heard.
My point is that there’s no such thing as the ultimate solution as everyone is different when it comes to system and taste.
Quoting from Sonore’s site: “The Signature Rendu SE optical, the absolute finest streaming USB source we have made. The Signature Rendu SE optical takes an Ethernet audio stream and renders it to a perfect, ultra-low noise USB feed to one’s USB DAC.”
It does not offer a wireless, ethernet, SPDIF or AES/EBU output, so is not a device I would ever look at.
So it is a false comparison to things like the dCS Bridge or Linn DS/DSM because none of them provide a usb output, or really use usb at all. They don’t like usb because it is a high bandwidth computer protocol which is sub-optimal for audio. The dCS Bridge only has a usb input, basically to facilitate quick use of a usb thumb drive.
I just looked at four reviews of the Signature Rendu Optical. The first one started: “I’ve used products from Sonore for many years. These guys are always on the cutting edge …”. So no review bias there. Same on all the other three reviews, none from organisations I’ve ever heard of.
Besides that, I’ve never heard of the Aries 2. Do you mean the G2? I had an Auralic Aries Femto for years and an Aries Mini, which my son has. Auralic recommended to use the Aries wireless output, then AES/EBU, then usb. I sold the Aries Femto as using wireless the Aries Mini does the same thing. They are good devices for usb, as I noted above.
My Innuos Zen Mk3 server does have an ethernet output. The cable run to my streamer is 25m. I’ve done it with CAT6a and with fibre optic and so far as I could hear it makes no difference to sound quality. It also has a very good quality usb output with a dedicated linear power supply and plenty of people use it with the usb output. Darko said the usb output from the Zen Mk3 into his DSD DAC was just as good as I2S.
Innuos’ maxed out clean usb Phoenix device taken from their Statement $10,000 server is a very recent product that has received universal praise. It’s not complicated - OCXO reclocking and two internal dedicated linear power supplies.
The dCS, on the other hand, is massively flexible. It’s sold in large quantities for 4 or 5 years since launch. Stereophile, who I have heard of, tested it to destruction, and said:
I’ve paired so many different components, and explored so many different ways to use the dCS Network Bridge, that I’m probably ready to launch an audiophile edition of match.com. But so painstaking a methodology was necessary to conclusively establish whether the Network Bridge could optimize the sounds of files and streams played through the dCS Vivaldi and other DACs, and present music in the best possible light.
The answer is incontrovertible. The $4250 dCS Network Bridge and app comprise an invaluable—I’d say indispensable—asset for owners of a Vivaldi and or older dCS DAC. And even with DACs from companies other than dCS, the Network Bridge delivered sound that was demonstrably superior to conventional computer-audio playback via USB. As with dCS’s major upgrade of the Vivaldi DAC’s software to v.2.02: Class A all the way.
The Signature Rendu SE optical seems a very expensive product given its very limited connectivity. In the UK it costs £4,425 without any optical add-on bits. The dCS Bridge costs £3,600.
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dCS is a great unit but it is plain wrong to claim it is the ultimate solution for EVERYONE. Not everyone wants ethernet, etc. Some people want USB. Some people HAVE to have wi-fi. The Network Bridge doesn’t have i2S so that makes it less than ultimate for many PS Audio users for example.
Just because you think the Sonore has limited connections doesn’t make it have worse SQ. As for the reviews, are you telling me you haven’t heard of AudiophileStyle or Positive-Feedback? Really?
You’ve said you have a Devialet, they’re really nice units, I’ve heard several. To me they sound harsh, thin and fatiguing, but that’s just me and doesn’t mean it doesn’t sound great to you in your system.
Like I said:
A couple of points:
All external music (rapidly becoming the prime source) arrives via internet so why is it necessary to change it from ethernet packages before the renderer/DAC, and why is the intermediate format USB necessary given the quality available in hardware like the dCS Network Bridge?
Wireless networking only needs to be avoided in the vicinity of the renderer/DAC. A wireless bridge can be setup at the remote location of music storage (local or internet), computers etc, and at the other end connected to a unmanaged switch with 3m wired and optical fibre link to the renderer/DAC, giving excellent isolation.
Most of my music doesn’t come from the internet, I have it stored locally, I think many people have existing music collections that they don’t want to pull from the internet every time they want a listen.
As for USB being necessary that’s all some DACs support and it’s what the Matrix supports which is crucial for many DSD DAC users and so USB output from a streamer is required.
Guys, calm down… be nice and don’t fight. There are many ways that lead to Rome. It’s all based on individual taste, concept, budget etc.
I selected an USB streaming solution, knowing that it is not perfect, but on the other hand it is very open. It does not lock me down to a few exoctic devices using proprietary protocols (yes, even I2S is not a standard that everybody implements the same way). Almost every DAC supports USB and if done correctly, the result should be equal to I2S. So I tried to get at least the best possible USB implementation, that’s why I chose the opticalRendu which is providing perfect galvanic isolation. Also, the guys at Sonore highly focus on streaming devices and have great experience with implementing ethernet into their products. And as some might know, ethernet is very critical to noise. I don’t want to have any ethernet port in my DAC. I think Sonore did a very decent job here.
Is my solution the best to build? No. But it’s the way I like to build my system. Many ways lead to Rome.
OK I should have been more inclusive - I also have a large local music library accumulated over many years and including many irreplaceable tracks/recordings. This is on a NAS connected to the remote part of the LAN. My point was really “where are we headed?” While I can immediately play music from this library using an iOS or Android app my son’s reaction is “why are you keeping all this - you can find anything you want online?”
Similarly with USB - you are correct there is currently a strong demand for hardware to support DACs with USB input. Again “where are we headed?”. I’d just note that in 2013 I bought one of the original Sonore Rendus, an Ethernet to SPDIF renderer, that Sonore stopped making (presumably because of lack of demand) before switching to their current line of ethernet to USB renderers. Maybe they were just ahead of their time.
It will be interesting to see how things develop.
Happy listening!
[quote=“nycenglish, post:27, topic:17303, full:true”]
dCS is a great unit but it is plain wrong to claim it is the ultimate solution for EVERYONE. Not everyone wants ethernet, etc. Some people want USB. Some people HAVE to have wi-fi. The Network Bridge doesn’t have i2S so that makes it less than ultimate for many PS Audio users for example.
Just because you think the Sonore has limited connections doesn’t make it have worse SQ. As for the reviews, are you telling me you haven’t heard of AudiophileStyle or Positive-Feedback? Really?
You’ve said you have a Devialet, they’re really nice units, I’ve heard several. To me they sound harsh, thin and fatiguing, but that’s just me and doesn’t mean it doesn’t sound great to you in your system.
Like I said:
Music has for some years been largely online, so ethernet is going to be a standard. 15 years ago, before online streaming, Linn realised that ethernet connections were optimal for being fast and low-noise. Linn and Auralic realised that network storage was critical, given the size of files and lack of space on computers, so their software created their own network (Auralic Lightning Server and Linn Kazoo Server). Devialet implemented their own 24/192 streaming protocol on top of 16/44 Airplay, which is also very commonly implemented. So using ethernet, wifi and a network may not suit you, but it it’s how most people stream music and around which virtually all streamers are designed. No to do so would be plain stupid.
Of course I2S is a non-standard protocol and PS Audio is one of the very few manufacturers who implement it natively. According to Wikipedia there are only two other companies, both in the USA (Audio Pristina and Wired4sound).
Sorry, but I haven’t heard of AudiophileStyle or Positive-Feedback.
The Sonore has limited connections because they say it is designed to stream from an ethernet input to a usb output, and its connections are limited to that. The fact is that for most manufacturers and users usb is the third or 4th option after wireless, SPDIF and AES/EBU. The dCS can output balanced SPDIF and AES/EBU, which some high-end DACs can receive like, dCS own DACs and Chord Dave.
I have nothing against the Sonore or properly implemented usb. My own Zen Mk3 server has usb as one of its two outputs, with its own internal linear power supply and is commonly used. It so happens it also has 4TB of storage and costs half the price of the Sonore. The Roon Nucleus is popular and is usually used with usb output.
The dCS Bridge is popular with Devialet owners, who use it via AES/EBU as an alternative to the internal streamer. I’ve herd Devialet sound harsh and thin, ironically in their own store, thanks to a pair of rubbish speakers. It definitely is not with my own speakers, and certainly is not fatiguing, which is also a speaker issue. It may be because the PS Audio DSD DAC sound has a reputation for being a bit smooth in the upper mid and top end, which is not what you get with Devialet. (I’ve only owned a Mk2 DAC, I’ve not owned a DSD DAC due to the UK cost - around $9,000 - and I have no interest in DSD.)
Paul has no problem with closed systems, indeed her prefers them and I think he said the upcoming server won’t connect to network drives. It will of course have an I2S output. That makes no sense to me, but it may make sense to PS Audio DAC owners, so indeed nothing is universal. The lack of Roon makes it a non-starter for me.
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My only contention was the statement that the dCS NB is the ultimate solution regardless of system or tastes, everything else I more or less agree with you.
As @davidl says it’s also a question of where the tech is heading. Personally I think optical Ethernet is a very good option and has a lot of potential. I also don’t like USB for SQ despite having an Innuos Zenith Mk3.
Even though I think the PSA Octave will probably be awesome SQ-wise, like you, no Roon makes it a non-starter for me.
I just don’t think you’re going to get manufacturers to implement fibre optic inputs and outputs when everything already has standard RJ45 and CAT. I use both and ethernet is more practical and more robust and I’m not convinced there is any difference worth the trouble.
Given my experiences I’ll disagree with you re robustness and difference with ethernet vs optical but let’s not hijack this thread. 
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Thanks for the response. My primary question is do you, as a high end, highly regarded DAC designer, does anything within your DAC design to mitigate or eliminate incoming noise?
Or, if one is concerned with such things, a streamer of some measure of quality, the only way to defeat that particular beast?
I have your DSJ. Is there anything about the DSJ (or DS) design that makes it more immune to incoming noise? Or is incoming noise not an issue you design for?
Thanks
I’ll admit that I’m inherently skeptical about the degree of improvement claims made by the audiophile industry, especially as it relates to price. And am equally leery of the ways in which our own brains are prone to trick us.
Darko has a video out in which he evaluates the Allo Digi One Signature with an inexpensive battery supply. The rig costs less than $300. He says it compares well to any sub $3000 streamer on the market, besting Auralic. In fact, he uses the Allo to challenge the streaming industry in regards to what they are delivering at such a high price.
To my way of thinking, that means the noise issue can be solved for $300 to a very high level. I find it incredulous that we can have $4000, $6000, even $10K DACs and that the DAC design has not internally dealt with the incvoming noise issue on its own. Surely high end DAC designers understand these issues. I don’t understand why the only solution is to buy yet another device to jump through various hoops and hurdles. I could understand it for a low end DAC, the price would dictate some engineering short cuts.
This leads me to question the persuasive nature of internet forums. We read so and so saying how great the UltraRendu, or Innous, et al is, and we keep reading it and there could be a type of brainwashing that happens. We order the device and our brain has been essentially pre-washed to like it. Then we begin posting how much we like it, unwittingly contributing to the cycle.
I’m not saying these expensive streaming devices don’t help, I honestly don’t know. But I would like to see a Frontline investigation instead of having to rely upon the mixed motive audiophile press and internet forum lemmings 
It’s more complicated than that. Even a perfect DAC with complete jitter and noise immunity will cause groundloops in the rest of the system. Then that groundloop noise can cause interference or outright noise in other components.
To avoid such problems the TSS (and any new DS(s)) will have optional ground lifts on every connection (except power.) Being able to lift the grounds implies that those inputs are galvonically isolated. (The outputs of the DS and TSS are transformer isolated.)
The DS has some good power filtering on the analog card, the TSS and future DACs will have more. The whole purpose of the two box approach of the TSS is to separate any digital noise (and any input noise on the digital connections, etc.) from the whole analog box.
Having a long optical fiber connection will further allow the digital parts of your system to be a long way away from the analog.
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As I have mentioned elsewhere here. I have a heavily modified W20SE. Plus A purpose built NUC running core windows, a bunch of the “Audiophile” software, out to several “boxes”. Either into the DSS or Select DAC II loaded with mono power bases. Right now I feel that the NUC system into the DSS streaming Flac radio is beating anything in the world hands down for that application. I am very surprised myself. The sound is sublime. Better than the finest CD transports in fact. I am pretty amazed. It was just a fluke that I got it right.
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I used Aries Femto-with Matrix- which I liked. As the Femto is not longer supported I was looking for an alternate. I tried Euphony with a Mini PC and it was a step ahead, esp. with ramroot. Now I have built a dedicated PC with the music on an Inboard 8TB HD.
Roon is installed as Core in Euphony. The music is streamed out of ram via USB - Matrix - DSD. 4 Friends of mine changed to Euphony from different configurations after they did hear my streamer at their homes.
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