In search of the great sound stage

Everything Else Systems
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Experts, Help me here. I consider myself an audiophile but not at this Boards level.

(I am a PS Audio believer and have purchased several albums from Octave records and also purchased the Sprout100 for my second home.)

So, my question here is what really is the “wide sound stage”?

I have a system that is supposed to produce a wide, deep, and high sound stage and while it is amazing, I don’t get the wide part. Center image, rock solid. I do get some depth, and I do get some height. Occasionally I hear stuff to the left or right of the speakers but is this the sound stage everyone talks about? Paul talks about the musicians behind the speakers, I certainly do not get that. I do hear occasional cymbals or horns above and sound to the left and right but not a broad sound stage beyond the speakers.

So my system is Peachtree Carina driving Kef R3metas and Kef KC 62 sub and it is awesome. But sound stage that I read about not so much.

Please share what a great sound stage should sound like?

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Excellent question.
If an artist used a stereo pair of microphones to record their music, wherever the were positioned is where they should appear. If we are talking about acoustic music, the guitar should come from one place, bass another, drums another. If it was recorded in a small room you should sense the walls, left, right, back, etc. That is the ideal setup.

But most recordings are made in a studio with 10 microphones on the drums, one or two stuck in front of each amplifier, and one for each horn etc. In this type of recording the mixing engineer can fiddle with the sound any way he likes. He uses “Pan pots”, controls on the mixing board to place each microphone input in the center, left, far left, right, far right etc. In this situation the soundstage can be anything the engineer wants it to be. Each drum and cymbal can be anywhere he or she wants it to be. And he can mess with it, moving the position of one or more sources in many possible ways.

This makes it difficult as each recording can have a different sound stage that can expand, collapse, whatever they wanted to do.

In my room, the soundstage becomes whatever it was engineered to be. In my room sounds come from specific locations, not limited to the size of my room. Walls no longer matter, the sound appears to come from outside the room often. I use special gear that allows this.

Speakers are a major deciding factor in how deep and wide your soundstage is. Some are much better than others at expressing this. Also, where you sit is important. Sitting close to the speakers, which is called nearfield listening allows the soundstage to be better perceived. Sitting back a way from the speakers can make the sound seem wider.

The problem with explaining what you should experience is there are endless variables to consider. The best way for you to learn about this is to hear other systems. Try to listen to a few hand picked songs and listen to them on different systems. Once you learn what is possible, folks can give you advice as to how to make improvements with your setup to enhance soundstage expression. It is something many of us focus on and there are some incredible DSP equipped gear that can absolutely enhance the sound stage experience.

Two hundred and fifty-thousand more words needed. LOL

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I’ve a large digital active system. Many recordings mean that I have a complete circle of sound at the speaker end of the room. Some recordings, e.g. Ray Charles with Natalie Cole covering Fever (album Genius Loves Company) produce sound all across the front and sides. There are also recordings that produce sound from behind the listening position.

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Listen to a song called “Birds” by Dominique Fils-Aime from her album titled “nameless”
or a song called “Human” by Sevdaliza
or a song called “I put a spell on you” version by Chantal Chamberland
as 3 examples of songs with sounds that should be everywhere but the speakers.
In general terms, speakers arranged closer together and with little to no toe-in tend to be able to produce sounds beyond the speakers better than speakers further apart and with lots of toe-in (my speakers are further apart and with more toe-in)

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exactly

has anything sold to us not been mixed/produced/centerized/engineered/level adusted/filtered?

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Seriously, some music is cheerfully simple. I tend to go for the weirder the better. But an occasional break for simplicity and modest artistry seems cleansing.

I may try it again sometime this year.
Summer perhaps.

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Actually, there are direct-to-disc (LP) recordings where the microphones are directly connected to the cutting lathe (no “Master” anything, no mixing, etc.) APO Records published a series of records in 2009 using the direct-to-disc technique. I have several and they sound great. The music/artists may not be mainstream but I find the styles very accessible.

This one features Zydeco. Scroll to the bottom of the page and you’ll see other albums in the APO series.

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Thanks for the reminder! I have some of those. All Latin music of course.

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Where are your speakers positioned in your space? You won’t perceive depth if speakers are up against the front wall.

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Right, distance from the back wall really determines depth.

What I find fascinating with my amp is that the voltage regulation tubes play a large part in how the soundstage manifests itself. (There is a voltage regulation tube for the input tube and each of the two driver tubes). If I use those that cause the least drop (0C2) there is more depth and less width to the soundstage. If I use those that initiate the largest drop (0A2) there is more width and a little less depth. That in between (0B2) has a nice balance of width and depth, but with my favorite tube complement the frequency balance isn’t quite my favorite.

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I cheat as I use BACCH. This makes it so easy to create a 3D soundstage.

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As Al said above, if it’s not in the recording, it’s not there.
I have some recordings that create the illusion of sound far beyond the boundaries of the speakers. Most, however, not.
Pick a recording that you find best for soundstage width and then experiment with speaker placement.
Also, there’s a pretty good book by some character named Paul McGowan titled The Stereo that you might want to read.

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Baach stuff is intriguing.

Honestly the best staging I have ever experienced was completely by accident. Im sure recording etc as mentioned plays a huge role. However i have never had a startle factor and heard a stage so wide untill I got my DeVore speakers. They totally dissappear and throw stuff waaay left and right. Not every song but from Floyd to Coltrane, you can position instruments in space.

Speaker design may not be the last word in sound stage, its got to be an influence. Some more than others no doubt…

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Oooh! I had DeVore 096s for nearly a year on long term loan. What great speakers.

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A great test track for soundstage width is Roger Waters’ “Too Much Rope”. At the 0:55 mark a team of horses (and their bells) will come from the extreme left, cross the stage, and fade out on the extreme right. It will even appear on the fade that the bells are coming out of the wall perpendicular to my right ear. Kinda spooky yet amazing.

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I have Gibbon Super 9s. Really great speakers. No idea what i would even do to upgrade.

I think im “stuck” lol

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I took the trouble to research your speakers. At first glance, these seem quite simple in their square housing with two paper cones and a small tweeter. I like to tune anything I can get my hands on. But if you look inside the speakers, I can’t immediately find anything that I can improve. Various damping materials, high-quality internal wiring and a molded crossover. But from the looks of it, it probably houses an oil paper capacitor. I couldn’t see the rest in the photos, thanks to the casting compound. It seems to be a really well thought-out concept that already takes all sorts of optimizations into account. This is very rare with finished speakers. Al’s explanations of the different recording techniques also reminded me that not everything is played the way we think we hear it and imagine the stage. As a system with its BACCH DSP I would like to experience it. I can well imagine that the BACCH compensates for some shortcomings well. I’m also always looking for the perfect representation of a soundstage. First, the system at Progressive Audio showed me what a realistic soundstage could look like. After that I had changed a lot. It is helpful to listen to many different high quality and well put together systems. The space and placement of the speakers and listening position are also very important. Space is a boundary that is not easy to change; moving is often the only solution. Schnerzinger’s system was the most impressive thing I’ve ever heard. Not just a perfect spatial stage representation.
Above all, I was fascinated by the dynamics that a system can create. Pages had speed and keystrokes had a dynamic that I had never heard from a system before. Was it the grid protector, Emi and all that other stuff like the Schnerzinger cables? On my way to perfect staging, I noticed that power cables play a significant part. Some manage to display the smallest reverb components and even the walls of a recording room. The resolution capability of the speakers is also important. This is achieved by a good tweeter and also by high quality capacitors and resistors on the crossover. Actually, every component and cable with high resolution is another step in the right direction. Positioning and space are important. I just installed another bypass capacitor in my crossover yesterday. I deliberately chose the value to be very low because I didn’t want any tonal change. The result is a little more openness and a slightly increased image.
Reducing noise and interference in the system helps create a black background and allows the subtlest details to be perceived.

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In my experience, avoiding visual focus on the speakers can help in the illusion of sounds originating beyond the R/L boundaries of the speaker positions. This is especially true of high frequency sounds. If I’m looking through a magazine or doing light reading, I’ll hear things like cymbals and bells coming from outside the speaker positions. As soon as I look up at the speaker, the illusion is gone,and they’re coming directly from the speaker.

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You’re right: If you concentrate less on the speakers, we hear sounds more distributed. But the fascinating thing for me is looking at the speakers and constantly asking myself where the sounds come from when the soundstage makes the speakers completely disappear. The stage is far behind the speakers, and the speakers just seem superfluous in the room. That’s what excites me: when what I hear can no longer be associated with the speakers as the source.

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Thank you for your time and input. They are also pretty hard to find. Small company.

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