After many (probably too many) years of listening, I think I am finally experiencing the power of the “phantom” center channel of my stereo system. There are two things that have changed: a new dedicated listening room, and the purchase of a Stellar M1200 set of mono block amplifiers. Certainly I have heard full stereo soundstage before and know what’s in the middle - the thing I’m hearing now is this middle being isolated from the rest. On the one hand, it is phenomenal - like the singer is really in the room, sometimes in my lap! I’ve never heard vocals sound so detailed and realistic. The problem is that it is sometimes TOO present, standing out too much, like the singer is in front of my seat and the band is on the stage. It does vary with recordings, but I’m wondering whether I just need to get used to it or whether I might be setting up my speakers so there’s just too much center going on? My room is a bit small - 14 feet long by 10 feet wide. My speakers are Vandersteen Iici which might be too big for the room. But everything except that too-present center channel is balanced and wonderful - very wide soundstage. And like I said, most truly audiophile-level recordings have this great center presence at the right level. I’ve done a lot of experimenting with toe-in, straight-on, closer/farther apart, playing with acoustic panels, etc., which affect soundstage, but the center stays about the same. I want a great concert stage, but this is sometimes dis-concerting… get it? Anyone had any experience like this?
Maybe toeing OUT (it means less toed in until they go straight on) the loudspeakers you can expand better the soundstage, also far left to the left and right to the right speaker. And at the same time increasing the distance between the 2 speakers (like being closer to a soundstage). It might help also decreasing the “strength” of the center image.
I agree with Luca. Perhaps running through Paul’s speaker setup process might help.
Yeah, I’ve tried toeing everywhere - out, in, straight - I even overdid things. As I said in my description, it affects the soundstage, but the BIG center still seems to be there in some recordings no matter where my toes are. Thanks, though.
Does Vandersteen’s manual offer any advice on setup and placement.
Oh, I’ve got Paul’s Loudspeaker book and worked hard with it. Interestingly, the recordings that work best with my setup are the Octave recordings, but also Chesky, Reference, 2xHD, etc. I’m really beginning to wonder whether it’s just dependent on mix - where the engineers/producers who didn’t really have such critical monitoring systems didn’t even know they were overdoing the “phantom” center? And the only people who’d know were those who really, as Paul calls it, “dialed in” their central sound. Hey, maybe I’ll identify a few recordings where this is bugging me and list them - maybe someone could review on their system and see if they get the same problem?
Makes complete sense to me. Good recordings sound great, great recordings sound fabulous, and bad recordings sound terrible.
If you have room to bring the speakers out from the front wall more, it would usually move the center back and reduce the presence. Another possibility is to put diffuser/absorber at the center behind speakers.
Hi Palouse, thanks for the reply. Yeah, Vandersteen has a very good manual, but it’s pretty much the same approach as Paul in the Loudspeaker book. Something else I just thought about - because of may small room, I’m having to sit pretty close to the speakers - Paul says to do everything I can to have 2 feet behind the speakers to maximize soundstage depth. He does mention the “leaning” angle of the speakers - Vandersteen’s manual is really good on this - but maybe leaning them forward or back more would help. Good thing I’ve got a strong back (and a weak mind).
I have the 3A Sig still… spent 15+ years with them… they now live in a second system A few things…
I can “dial-in” the center image to the point it is distracting. I described it as “vocals coming from a wrapping paper tube”. It’s shocking but unrealistic to my ears. Toe out was the solution which caused the center to be a bit more disperse and natural to my ears. Also, does your model have an acoustic coupler? I found distance between speakers at that frequency, to help build a slight peak, changed the “weight” of the overall sound enough it would help put body behind the center image and that helped a lot to bring realism to the soundstage.
One other issue you may run into, and I battle center and this issue, is anything hard-panned to the left or right in the higher frequency, like highest octave of guitar or high hat, make sure that isn’t coming directly from the speaker. It should be as wide as the rest of the soundstage. A speaker pointed too direct may cause this to become a “beam” directly from the speaker.
The other advice I have regarding the Vandersteens… Give them a day or two even if you don’t think they are “right”. Most temperamental speaker on the planet I fear. Some days they were perfect. Some days they were just distracting with sounds slightly pulled left or right. It’s one reason I don’t use them in my main system anymore. But, when they were right, oh my gosh were they really really right. Some days I miss them. My secondary set-up isn’t doing them any favors.
If you work also on the distance of your listening position do you hear any differences? I mean going a little bit closer to loudspeaker.
Is your listening position also according to the manual? Furthermore, in regards to the width of your room, the speakers seem to stand about six feet apart? That might be a bit too close.
Anyway, I like the suggestion of @dchang05.
Well, first off - I HATE people who have a secondary system. But that’s just plain jealousy. Seriously, I like how you are describing the Vandersteen situation. One thing I’m not running into is a small center image - it is plenty big and full, not “paper tube” as you describe. I’m not entirely sure what the IIcs have going on - I just had one of the woofers re-coned and the guy said there’s a tweeter and 2 woofers - one wider range that handles a lot of the midrange, and a rear-facing woofer that is really low bass. I think the “coupling” term is what I’m having trouble with, but the thing about it is that it’s NOT BAD coupling - it’s very very good, just a bit too much in volume.
For me with my Maggie LRS’s that made a huge improvement in the width and naturalness of the sound stage.
The speakers are 3 feet from the wall behind and there are 2 diffuser panels back there. The distance between the speakers is 7 feet, 6 feet from the listening position. I thought I had 2 feet behind them, so I might try moving them back a little, That’s against your logic of moving them closer, but I’ll give it a try. I really appreciate the help.
The joy of a hobby that keeps on taking! 
The listening position is pretty close to the manual, which is pretty close to Paul’s suggestions in the Loudspeaker book. As I said elsewhere, I’m also a little concerned about the tilt of the speakers - it’s what the manual stipulates, but what’s the harm in playing around with it?
Go to a local Hi Fi dealer, a quality one, and tell them your problem. Ask to listen to similar speakers with good imaging. Hopefully they will let you listen and recommend track(s) with a good image that is spread across the stage. Then go back home and listen to the same track(s) on your system. Play with it once you have a known reference.
Also, I would recommend checking your speaker wire phase.
I’m already pretty close to the speakers - 6 feet, which is a bit close compared to the 7 feet in between them. It’s a very good listening position overall, but one thing I’m finding with a small room is there’s really a lot of cheating and compromising needed to find the right fit.
This is the “coupler”. It’s crossed at 35Hz if I’m reading the right manual. When placing the speakers close to the front wall make sure you’re testing with music (or test tones / sweeps) that go down this far otherwise this cone isn’t moving, or not moving enough, to help make sure you’re not so close to the wall you’ve destroyed bass articulation or so far away its not getting the room reenforcement. I preferred my 3As away (at least 3-4 feet) from the wall but I also paired them with subs.
Anyway… I find good bass response influences good center image realism which is why I’m mentioning all this.
Well, you’ll be happy to know the only reason I have this “secondary” system is because I simply bring myself to sell the 3a Signatures. If I didn’t hook them up my wife was going to start a formal process to deem me insane for keeping speakers in a corner and not using them. 
Maybe some day I’ll find a good home for them and someone can truly enjoy them again.