I’ve been a fan of Pat’s work for some time (I have a pair of Kestrel 2s that I lived with very happily for a long time before returning to the Maggie fold last fall), but I’d take this with a very large grain of marketing salt.
How interesting. I have the Kestrel HotRods and am contemplating a move to the Maggie 0.7’s. How did the Meadowlark and Magnepan sound compare?
As for the main topic, I was also going to point out the Kii Three does about the same thing. The Darko video on them is compelling. But at $20K, I don’t see how such schemes are going to appeal to young buyers who can’t even afford active KEF LS50’s. Young buyers need affordability, and Kii’s are only affordable to basically a wealthy person. And from what I gather from Darko videos, the Kii’s tend to be more analytical, very audiophile, a sound that often does not appeal to young folks who prefer boogie.
i wonder where Blu-Ray and, separately, DVD’s compare to this analogy…I’ve heard nothing that competes with BD’s…DVD’s seem somewhere in the (upper) middle…
@tarheelneil: You ask “Conventional audio has little appeal to young buyers?? Then why is it that the turntable/vinyl Renaissance is being led by young people?” I’ve known more than a few young people who love vinyl records but have no interest in audio beyond the basics. Working in a university setting I’ve had the opportunity to get to know quite a few young people who have become interested in listening to vinyl after growing up listening to headphones/earbuds and iPods. I’ve maintained some contact with them as they moved on into the working world and not one of them ever developed any interest in pursuing what you or I would consider audiophile quality sound. The appeal of vinyl to them seems to be the physical involvement with media (both handling and shopping for it) and the way listening to vinyl tends to make you pay more attention to the act of listening. I find it baffling that they never seemed to develop any interest in improving their audio quality beyond basic entry level vintage turntables and electronics. Obviously lots of people are buying new turntables and other vinyl equipment, but I’d love to know the demographic breakdown of those buying new gear. The maxim that younger people tend to want to spend their money on experiences rather than “things” is often repeated, maybe that’s part of it.
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DVDs support up to 192 kHz/24-bit in 2 channel stereo. SACD is DSD64 which people equate to 96/24. So what I wrote still applies to DVD and SACD. The mastering is still the key to great sound.
I think well recorded and mastered DSD64 sounds better than well recorded and mastered PCM at 96/24 and 192/24…
on the better systems i have heard, disc wise, nothing Digital beats a well mastered BD…SACD’s sound Digital & Flat in comparison DVD’s & BD’s… DVD spec the same as BD’s up to 192kHz/24 DVD-A, but the BD is quieter and more refined…
I was only able to check the SACD’s and DVD’s on Original`Master Recordings on both for the comparisons…I also tried an 192kHz/24 (and 96/24’s) DVD-A to the same recording (48kHz/24) on BD and the BD becomes an obvious choice…none of which was audible to me before delving into truly “A” class front end…
have you every personally compared BD’s or BD-A’s vs. SACD?
aren’t SACD’s 1st converted to PCM to master/mix?.. if so…
Give me a break…
Blu-Ray offers nothing more than 192/24. If you think you hear something better than DVD or SACD you are mistaken. Again, masterings are the key.
…and I will take DSD64 over 192/24 with the same mastering.
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Yeah, Blu Ray and DVD-Audio are the same except you can have more channels on Blu Ray. DVD video on the other hand doesn’t generally go above 24/48.
And contrary to popular opinion, most DSD masters are not converted to PCM. Generally the popular ones are mastered in the analogue realm from tape or DSD playback, even the PCM recordings are mastered vis analogue for DSD. There are some classical and jazz that are done at 24/352 (sounds ok, but not the best), but now those going that route just record at 24/352 anyway.
obviously, you’ve guys have never actually compared by your own ears…relying on specs is not the way to know…
but, as long as you are happy in your shell…
Relying on specs? For real?
If you don’t like the sound of DSD/SACD on your own player that is a preference, and one that many don’t share.
Are you also saying that Blu Ray sounds better than a DVD-Audio disc or digital file containing the same digital audio?
This is all quite amusing. The world is streaming and mostly using headphones, mostly at around 320kbs, and 16/44 is referred to as high definition. DSD, SACD, DVD-A and vinyl are of marginal or no consequence to the music industry. Multiple components will persist in the margins, but even the more successful traditional audio companies have come to realise that more compact, integrated units are the way forward.
You can get supremely good sound from well-mastered 16/44. I stream whatever PCM format gets delivered and it is all processed in 24/192. I have vinyl and it goes through A/D conversion and DSP is applied, with no loss in quality.
DSD either has to be mastered in DSD or transferred from tape and the vast majority of studios just stick to PCM, mostly 24/96. Qobuz considered streaming DSD about 3 years ago, even announced it, but never bothered for lack of a market. My system can play DSD, but converts it to 24/192 PCM.
My kids are 19 and 23. The younger one only streams to a wireless box. The older one does university radio and now hospital radio, he has a good record collection and a $1,300 audio system, which he considers more than sufficient.
People here may disagree with Audiosciencereview.com, but it is full of young people who love Class D active speakers with DSP or external Class D amplifiers and consider the RME ADI-2 DAC to be the only DAC worth paying more than $500. They have a point.
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I don’t think they do…
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absolutely…with BD-Audio even besting BD…
i’m only considering the playback.…not how you engineers record it, including consideration as to specs…
but, in a league beyond PSA equipment and such…
so, as to your equipment, maybe your right…(this is not meant as a knocking of your equipment per se or your talents as an engineer or your ability to discern the sonics.)
LOL. Is this a joke?!
- What he’s saying has been happening for years!
- LOTS and LOTS of active speakers with DSP on the market now already
- Young ppl, STILL aren’t into these
- Younger ppl are more into headphone
- Traditional speakers, when setup right in a treated room still sound BETTER than DSP active speakers
- Active speakers have limited upgradability
- DSP and room correction has been in receivers for DECADES
- New digital. active system, etc… get upgraded annually, become obsolete quickly
- Conventional Audio equipment is already a niche product, will remain a niche product, will remain more expensive due to lower quantity production, AND most likely will hold value better in the future
- New digital gear is like latest BMW, Merc cars that are shiny, fast, modern, and lovely that lose value THE MINUTE they leave the dealer and worth nothing in a few years, while conventional audio is like Porsche 911 that will retain value and interest for decades to come!
Conclusion, I agree on ONE point, there will be MORE active, all-in-one systems than before, and there will be a mix. However, they’d be more in the style and format of Sonos, rather than Audiophile quality.
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There is still going to an unavoidable marketing problem, people who care more about convenience than sound quality are only going to be persuaded so far into high end audio. For them Sonos is going to be good enough, or maybe those ASR guys can have fun with their Toping gear or studio monitors. The question is whether for those that are passionate about good sound and willing to spend the money, will all-in-one speakers prove to be superior to component systems?
They do have a point as far as PS Audio is concerned, because there is a lot of love for the Class D amplifiers of the type that PS Audio use in their Stellar range and seem to be proving very popular.
In the UK we have a brand called Nord Acoustics, that ASR have reviewed very favourably, they make units with the same ICE 1200 units as PSA, also the nCore 500 and 1200 and newer Purify 400 units, your choice of input buffers etc. and they sell RME ADI-2 DACs because they are a perfect match. They are extremely popular and also sell well in the USA.
Many manufacturers have been using these for years and my son might actually consider a Nord ICE1200 in stereo configuration for $1,000.
The truth is that they will. I care a lot about convenience and am “passionate” about good sound, and now will only use all-in-one systems. I am also willing to spend the money. My system is in one relatively small box, it sounds much better than my previous multi-component and more expensive system, and functions much better.
Separate boxes were considered better because they isolate things like power supplies and sensitive electronics. There have been huge advances in manufacturing and electronics design over the last 20-30 years and it just isn’t necessary to have that separation, you lose the negative aspects of cabling connections and you gain the benefits of feedback systems and DSP.
The most popular and award-winning products over here in the Europe are those by Hegel and AVM. Even in the USA I see Mackintosh Labs are making integrated amplifiers with a full digital option.
The idea that you have convenience at the expense of quality is ridiculously old-fashioned. My unit came to market 10 years ago and it was not the first.
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Disagree on most counts, except that it has been happening for about 15 years and most younger people prefer headphones. Many speakers without DSP require space that many people don’t have. DSP allows active speakers to be placed close to boundaries. Most digital systems are have far less obsolescence as they are designed to be software upgradeable. My system is also designed for modular hardware upgradeability and has been hardware upgraded twice since it was new 10 years ago, and is dramatically cheaper than replacing separate units. My PS Audio units lost 60% of their value in 2 years, my unit has lost about 33% of its value in 5 years.
The concept of “audiophile” quality is just snobbery. A company like Naim offer all-in-one units from $1,000 (Mu-So) to $5,000 (Uniti), and components systems up to $250,000, but their typical hi-end components are similar prices to PS Audio BHK level. The more you spend the better the quality, and the choice will depend on the customer’s budget and expectations. So if some is perfectly happy with a $3,000 Naim Uniti Atom that’s good for them. It’s also been good for Naim, as their Mu-So and Uniti ranges have been extremely successful.
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Very interesting discussion which has gone in an unimagined, but great, direction. After reading all of this I am intrigued by the notion of an all in one box, which keeps the speakers separate. For 20 years I had a simply entry level audiophile system. Entry YBA integrated amp, Aj! Tjeob CD player, and Meadowlark Audio Kestrel Hotrod speakers. In later years I ran a cheap USB cable from my Mac to the amp.
This all sounded swell. Then I discovered Computer Audiophile Forums. 4 years later I’m well down the rabbit hole. Have the $4000 DSJ, the S300, the Matrix, Sonus Faber Speakers, countless absurdly priced cables, boxes all over the place, a Roon lifetime license, HQP, etc.
And now fully infected with the audiophile virus, I’m contemplating adding an Aries G1, or a tube preamp, with yet more cables. And more power supplies.
It really is all quite crazy!! Does my system now sound better than my old one? Yes. But I’m also on some sort of crazy carousel that seems to never end. And my enjoyment level is about the same, I loved the old system, love the new system.
I’ve completely bought into the notion of separates being necessary.
I have no idea how it will sound in comparison, but the notion of the Naim Uniti Atom is quite refreshing. One box to rule them all. No more cables and power supples, and reclockers, or converter boxes. Just one box and then free to mess with speakers as I wish.
If the sound quality is truly up to par, I’m all for a one box solution. I’ve always looked down my nose at it.
What one box solutions (Dac, Amp, Streamer, Roon) do you all suggest?
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Don’t waste your money yet. “The Singularity Is Near”, as Ray put it in 2005. We won’t be needing any of this stuff. The DSP will be in your head.
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