Keep the PWD's volume above 50

According to the measurements I did, PWD actually achieve the maximum DR at around the 67% volume (and not at 100% as is commonly thought [Volume dithering ? Digital filters ?]).

DR in 1kHz, 44.1/24:

15% - 70dB

20% - 75dB

25% - 80dB

30% - 85dB

35% - 90dB

40% - 94dB

50% - 99dB

60% - 102dB

64-69% - ~104dB

80% - 100dB

90% - 101dB

100% - 98dB







*Note: Red - 100%, Blue - 67%, Yellow - 0% (Noise floor)



The problem is that a synthetic test is a single frequency and measured @ 0dBFS.



Pop/Rock (usually dyn. compr.) recordings, in average, lying quite close to the maximum. In this case you should try to get away from 100% to give the best result.



The quality recordings with a wide dynamic range, such as classical recordings, lyings away from FS. Here, there is a clear technical advantage to stay at 100% volume.



Paul, am I wrong?

Attached files

@frode,

Just checked mine I don’t have spade lugs, but no trouble at all with WBT 0645.

wijnand said: I have the little one with the brush. The brush fits nicely in the XLR buscontacts!

Excellent product, which I have used for years. I did not think of getting the brush for this purpose however - excellent thinking!


frode said: One common problem I am struggling with at my place is that when using spade lugs the speaker cables loosen from their binding posts after some time.

A annoying issue. A great argument for the Audioquest binding post wrench, a tool I have found useful.

Was inspired to clean all contacts today - thx for the reminder. Used Kontak, which seems to get a fair amount of grim off the metal. Or maybe it just turns black on contact with metal. Either way, I am satisfied. Afterall, if you have a convincing placeo effect, you should probably pay for it. :smiley:

Even at its best, 104db is quite a bit lower than 130db claimed.



According to the measurements I did, PWD actually achieve the maximum DR at around the 67% volume (and not at 100% as is commonly thought [Volume dithering ? Digital filters ?]).

DR in 1kHz, 44.1/24:

15% - 70dB

20% - 75dB

25% - 80dB

30% - 85dB

35% - 90dB

40% - 94dB

50% - 99dB

60% - 102dB

64-69% - ~104dB

80% - 100dB

90% - 101dB

100% - 98dB







*Note: Red - 100%, Blue - 67%, Yellow - 0% (Noise floor)



The problem is that a synthetic test is a single frequency and measured @ 0dBFS.



Pop/Rock (usually dyn. compr.) recordings, in average, lying quite close to the maximum. In this case you should try to get away from 100% to give the best result.



The quality recordings with a wide dynamic range, such as classical recordings, lyings away from FS. Here, there is a clear technical advantage to stay at 100% volume.



Paul, am I wrong?



crabby said: 104db is quite a bit lower than 130db claimed.

130dB claim?

Even Wolfson only claims128dB for just the chip itself. No one in their right mind is going to claim any audio circuit has a 130dB S/N.

admin said:

From our chief engineer, Bob.



"If you stayed in the digital realm, then yes a 32 bit volume control would not incur any loss. The problem is it doesn’t end there. There is a D/A conversion and analog components. Those components are not capable of the 192dB theoretical limit of 32 bit data.



The dynamic range of the PWD is around 130dB or more, which is excellent. If you lop 25 dB off the top you have 105dB left, which is still better than “CD” quality. Between 50 and 100 there should be no apparent degradation for a CD. For a higher resolution file source there may be some but it is probably negligible. Below 50 you are definitely starting to compromise performance.



A 24 bit file has a theoretical dynamic range of 144dB. So strictly speaking we cannot play a 24 bit file even at 100% full volume without degradation, since we have only 130dB of dynamic range available. The question is how much can you degrade it before you notice. "

I do not notice above 50! Below 50 you can notice someting which I don’t like. The problem with the sound is hard to notice immediately, but after listening a couple of tracks I’m sure there is a problem.

I’m always having smile on my face when I see numbers like 120dB :slight_smile: Just imagine you have at least 20dB of noise floor in your listening room and just add those 120dB to it and I would like to see the face of listener when smashed by 140dB sound - ouch :smiley:

maniac said: Just imagine you have at least 20dB of noise floor in your listening room

Just imagine You live in a very quiet village with single house :). It's more around at least 30 dB ...
More of that, most of vinyl fans satisfied with only 65dB DR.

But if claimed is 130db, shouldn’t the measured numbers bear that out?

crabby said: The dynamic range of the PWD is around 130dB or more, which is excellent.

I have no idea what Paul is referring to in this quote, but the PWD has never had 130dB S/N ratio. The chip itself, under perfect conditions by itself is 128 dB. The inherent thermal noise of any operational circuit is higher than this.

A real world broadband S/N of greater than 100 dB in any piece of audio equipment is spectacular.

The S/N of the PWD is not holding any system back. :)

A thing to consider about S/N.



Yes the noise floor is ----> that much further away from the signal…



But it also means that the small dynamic signals have that much greater, active/useable dynamic range, apart and away from the ‘active’ or predominant peak signals. Small signal dynamics and the ability to ‘associate’ them as closely as possible to their ‘parent’ signals is, a good part of hearing into the music, to greater depths.



Just my 2¢ as a few thoughts to ponder.



JJ

Let’s take a look at Miller Audio Research measurements of Distortion vs Level @ 1kHz, for some High End DACs:



















The PWD maximizes sound quality under -25db, and compromises for [-20 dB - 0 dB], compared to other converters, that maintains a relative linearity.





In the other hand, I’m concerned about the level of distortion, that arises in medium-high frequencies. It’s pretty high numbers, relative to the level of this equipment.











Attached files

Well I tried some things today but still the pre-amp is the winner. Without the pre-amp the normal volume on the PWD is somewhere around 16 to 25 and thats when I'm alone. When my girlfriend is home the sound is around 6, 10 at the most. When we eat we only need some background music the volume of the PWD is reduced to 2 or maybe 3.

The PWD has some +++ and the pre-amp has some +++++
PWD +'s are clarity and transparancy
Pre-amp +'s are soundstage, balance in low's mid's and hight's, dynamics on low volume, rest

I know I'm a little opinionated and were wrong in other cases, but again I'm positive, I think!
So I can't use the PWD's volume for high end listening


Hi Wijnand,
Apart from the bit resolution in the volume control I recently discovered something else as well;
I hooked up a Linn Akurate DSM and connected direct to a Pass Labs XA 30.5.
- PWD MKII was up for a small check (nothing wrong)-

Even with the Pass on a low volume setting and the Akurate control reasonably high (70-80%), I did not enjoy the sound. When I then verified I was informed it could be due to the fact that the Pass has a very low input impedance which apparently did not match the Linn.

I hooked up a pre-amp (which I did not want as it puts more complexity in the chain) but it sounded an awfull lot better.

Since that time I went on investigating good pre-amps. Especially the HAT MKII pre-amp from Hanze Hifi the Netherlands is a superb piece of equipment and proves to be an ideal match to my current system.

System:
PWD MKII, Sony SCD-1, HAT MKII, Krell KSA-300S, Pro-raum 21.07 Speakers (phase aligned)

Valer.

Could you provide further information on the numbers in those graphs?

Distortion in u or m?

Distortion from 0 to 120?



Thanks JJ

@valer_valer as JJ asked i’m also curoius what vertical scale have you used in distortion vs frequency measurements/graphs? Seems like time?? i’m bit confused, but very interested in your measurement. Also what was the measuring setup? Cables, ADC… ?

prefix m (milli) 1x10^-3 = 0.001.

prefix u [ µ ] (micro) 1x10^-6 = 0.000001.

prefix k (kilo) 1x10^3 = 1000.



Level in dB.

Distortion in % (Distortion vs Frequency graph), and in dB (Distortion vs Level graph).

Frequency in Hz.



For example, in PWD Distortion vs Frequency graph, we have 0.002% distortion @ 1000 Hz for the Left (black) and 0.00214% for right (Red) channel.

In Distortion vs Level @ 1kHz graph for PWD, we can see distortion -108.8dB @ -25.0dBFs signal level.

As I already wrote, classical music, for example, is very dynamic, and it’s important that the signal in lower levels (let’s say -40dB) will be with lowest possible THD + Noise levels (on dB it’s the opposite) to maximize SQ.

maniac said: what was the measuring setup? Cables, ADC.. ?

The last is not mine, it's http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/index.html.
Please register, and You can see all the measurements of all the equipment they tested.

@coopers154

Hi coopers or should I say hallo coopers!

I thought the akurate DSM has a preamp build in. If so why do you need a akurate control?

The Pass labs poweramps are a pretty good match with the PWD for what concerns the volume control.

I auditioned the Pass labs twice with the PWD and volume’s above 50 were reached easely.

I also auditioned the linn akurate vs the PS audio MK1 on the Pass Labs and the PS audio was the winner.



For a while I was not shure what I liked better with or without preamp, but I needed the preamp because of the clicks and pops which could be pretty loud while changing samplerates. I tried connecting the PWD a few times direct on the poweramp lost month and decided the preamp was the winner. After cleaning the cabling and contacts all my doubts were gone.

With a good preamp and cleaned cabling and contacts the SQ of the PWD will increase for sure. I know that now.

Thanks for sharing!