If you look at the speaker companies with real long term success, it’s based on years of continuous and structured research and development. My own Harbeth SHL5+ are a 40th anniversary 8th edition version, and that was after years of BBC research. At Munich Focal presented a 40th anniversary edition. ATC have been going even longer, establishing themselves as manufacturers of class leading drivers before they ever made a speaker. http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/about-atc/company-profile/
PMC started at the BBC and a lot of its initial success was from its 15” woofer. Even after 25 years of success and having proven their flat Nomex fibreglass woofer in the world’s leading recording studios, it took them 5 years to develop the Fenestria speaker, incorporating Nomex drivers.
Wilson also comes towards the top of the pile.
What these companies have in common is a single minded long term devotion to speakers, 80% of which is proprietary drivers. ATC and PMC have recently started making amps, but they’ve been making active speakers for 30 years.
I fully understand why Paul wants to do AN speakers, but I get the feeling that the servo woofer is a solution for a problem that no longer exists.
The idea of changing drivers after launch is a concern; a bit like Ferrari launching a new model and then changing the engine.
PMC have been using Bryson amps in their active speakers since they started, and are now Bryson’s European distributor and service agent. PMC’s Cor amplifier is integrated and only 95w, so unlike anything Bryston, but probably shares components and sonic signature (probably none).
You shoot right next door …
So don’t start any fire now … It wasn’t that way
The way our brain perceives sound is unfortunately not the same. It cannot be changed. Lenses are only sound pressure, tone and distortion. Sound is Subjective, which is also why you can see the various audio announcements coming from the show around the speaker. It is quite normal. We just forget that when we pronounce ourselves, as we say subjectively.
But if you can answer the question, you send it to me. Thanks bro
I’ll say this. Paul’s model is different. He hires not just ‘good’ people - but industry icons or soon to be. He had a leg up and irreplaceable speaker design experience with Arnie. I wouldn’t sell him short. Just sayin. (For Elk).
Yes thanks, I just see your last two sentences not as critical as I think we all were involved into the beginning of a development phase, not the end of it. What bothers me more is that the whole development phase (after the adoption of AN’s design) might be quite short. But Paul and his folks proved it many times to be able to launch a high performance product within ambitious schedule (some reliability and smaller fixing aspects put aside), so he has my goodwill
Well like anything - improvements are had over time. Wilson improves its speakers …magnepan does…as does every manufacturer. So true - the AN3 that finally arrives - might be improved in 10 years w new materials or better crossovers. But what to do? That doesn’t mean the new kit out of the gate isn’t top notch. Didn’t Andrew Jones go over to Elac and have some success with first models? A lot of people liked those - and now he has newer improved models. Maybe I’m missing the point. Haha
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t doubt the success of the AN.
Just when we’re speaking about a reference product from start, compared top the best of their category or price range…then the great features they offer (even those for room acoustic fitting) don’t make it alone. Doing magic with also a perfectly coherent tonality and pace develops. Certainly all this depends on the pretension one has…and how the personal experiences were with the first incarnations of a Wilson Whatt/Puppy, a Martin Logan hybrid, an Infinity xy … in relation to an existing, intensively concerted product it could be compared to. There are companies who develop for ages (or use a developer who did this for ages before working for the company) and then come with a product …and such who put a product to market quite quickly and then begin to refine it.
I first understood, AN1-3 is based on Nudell’s design quite tightly and well defined and I later understood, it’s mainyl the idea of the midbass coupler that’s used and the whole thing is more or less a development from scratch due to very different drivers used. I guess this will rise the necessary effort in development work, as it seems to be not simply a takeover and fine tuning of an existing blueprint. Unfortunately there are no online updates for speakers
I am uncertain why this would be a concern, Steven. What we showed was a prototype of the AN3. I had hoped to be clear on that note, though I suppose I was not. Sorry for any confusion.
There are ways of producing bass not using the servo technology, which is what Wilson and others do. They range from ports to passive radiators, transmission lines, etc. While they can (and do) produce good, tight bass, they don’t perform the
same as a servo. That’s just physics.
Servos are not used much any more because they are somewhat of a lost art. Even back when Arnie first introduced the concept of the servo woofer to the world it is a head scratcher for most. Consider that most speaker manufacturers aren’t electronics
manufacturers. The complex circuitry and skills required to properly execute an active servo woofer system are not generally in the wheelhouse of most speaker manufacturers. Way back, when Martin Logan wanted to add servo control to their Descent line of subwoofers,
they came to me for help. I designed their system and showed them how to build servo woofers. Their products were well accepted and excellent in my opinion.
The Stellar seemed to get developed quickly and it seems to have been a big success. If I were looking for a DAC, and I’m not, the Gain Cell DAC would be a serious contender. I’ve heard good things about it from owners in the UK, where there is almost no PR and no reviews. Plus it is on offer from most dealers 15% discounted.
Hey, I didn’t know this involvement in the ML Decent subs…it seems you did well, here the final statement of a review:
Buy Ye, Buy Ye
In the last five years, ML has learned plenty about bass; I expect the Descent is just the first in a line of wonderful subs to use “out of the box” thinking. The Descent is one of the finest subwoofers I’ve had the privilege of knowing, and worth every cold hard penny it will cost to make her your bride.
Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/content/martinlogan-descent-subwoofer-page-2#OcR04RimRXli8evq.99
Paul, maybe it’s because Im prejudiced to think that the art of speaker design starts with driver design, whether cones, pistons, planar, electrostatic or ribbon, and whether you use paper, hemp, aluminium, carbon fibre or polycarbonates. And a little more left field, the Devialet piston drivers produce spectacular bass (although I would only consider the Devialet Gold to be an audiophile speaker and it’s quite expensive). I only first understood what a servo woofer was when I read the Genesis website. If they are correct, it’s about getting better performance from a standard big heavy driver. My immediate reaction is that they should be designing more efficient and accurate woofers rather than trying to fix the performance of an inefficient and inaccurate one.
I also mentioned Devialet SAM, which basically appears to be doing with software what a servo speaker does with electronics, except that the bass response of over 1,000 speakers have been measured and calibrated. The bass adjustments are made in the digital domain before the signal is amplified and sent to passive speakers.
The other thing is that market research by several companies shows that thinner speakers are much more domestically acceptable. That was the basis of the PMC Fact range. I had the Fact.8 and my wife loved the looks. The backward rake on the PMC Twenty speakers makes them appear smaller than they are. This carried through into the Fenestria, that produces epic bass using carbon fibre piston drivers that are only 6.5" in diameter and the speaker is only 14.5" wide. The speakers are very deep, but you don’t see that. At the same price point, the Focal Maestro Utopia Evo is much wider and bigger and 50% heavier.
in the old days big Lockwood cabinets with 15" Tannoy HPD drivers (I love the sound from Tannoy DC drivers) were allowed as the wife did not have a say in the matter. I think times have changed.
Servo isn’t required…it’s just another topology that some use. Best bass is always from multiple (3-4) subs around the room. This is fact and science from the likes of Geddes, Toole, Welti and Parham…
I also think even if the AN series provides enough and deep enough bass to replace separate subs, the latter will still be better in a non AN or a AN setup due to their variable placement option apart from the main speakers.
Making a demo of the speaker here in that room can only go in the wrong direction. It is simply mathematics and physics. It is a mistake 40 from the start this. I wouldn’t even make a demo of IRS V in that room. So no one has heard the loudspeakers, they have heard 70 percent poor room sound.
In our small country there are incredibly many speaker developers. We have a sub-company that develops loudspeakers and devices for many other great speaker brands. There are many who buy for experience, etc. There are not many developers who have measuring equipment for 1 million dollars, etc. For the moment, China has started to buy the Danish sound engineer. There are many Danish units in the loudspeakers out in the big world.
