Just subs?
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Well, unfortunately over time many companies have taught us (mistakenly) that small equals fast and controlled. 
How nice to be able to speak directly with the project leader.
I’m the one to thank you and I think I will “consume” this thread. 
I remain available, it is an honor to be able to collaborate with PS Audio.
Thank you very much, Chris! 
Exactly, I thought that the double driver (even if there is a “saving” problem on the woofer) could be the best way to cancel vibrations.
Reading on the internet they say, I don’t know if it’s an urban legend:
Subwoofers can not beat the laws of physics.
Play a 20 Hz test tone at moderate volume and place your hand on the sub’s enclosure.
It will be shaking.
Newton’s third law.
Any shaking or vibration of the enclosure = distortion.
Have you ever thought about this structure created by Monitor Audio?
I think the cabinet vibration problem is a must for an enthusiast.
Consider that even if my Paradigm Reference Signature SUB25 is a marvel in the low frequencies, if I put my hand on it I almost feel the cabinet explode.
Will you use composite material, along with internal MDF reinforcements, like in the Aspen?
Gentlemen, I am really curious now to listen to these blessed RELs.
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I’m not going to say power cables are not important but I will say in my experience the subwoofer has benefited the least of any of my components from a power cable upgrade. Use a good cable don’t go crazy unless you have something in a spare cable closet getting dusty.
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I agree with this.
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Yeah, that seems counterintuitive, that the thing that draws the most current is least influenced by the cable in front of it. The cable for the P20 is the only exception I have heard. A general rule could be focus on your source components first, but I’m sure one could blow a lot of holes in that argument as
well. Hmm…where is Steven?
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Not necessarily…at least from one perspective…
What I mean is, LF sound is often omnidirectional and, generally speaking, not carrying as much detail in the signal path that (at least these older) ears can discern, pick out and listen to hypercritically.
I think maybe the general lack of easily heard details in these frequency ranges means the power supply to true subwoofers can be more forgiving (obvious clipping or distortion issues aside).
Just a theory…
Thoughts…?
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Since I bought the Verity Audio Otello I’m evaluating to dismiss my 2 REL subs. Every test I made by ear told me I’m liking what I’m hearing without them as well. Looking at FR graphs they seem to create a deep between 40-50 Hz regardless their position (and I moved them a lot around the room).
Less is more?
Less cables, less stuff in the room, better bass.
I know what subs may bring in term of realism of the scene, depth and 3D but it seems all of these attributes are not lacking.
Decisions, decisions.
From plots I also noticed a serious deep around 180-200 Hz and I’m putting a lot of effort managing different speakers set up in order to attenuate this problem. And a peak at 120 Hz that will be my next step.
I’m not familiar with Apps like Analyzer and REW so I ordered a USB microphone to learn more about my room measurements.
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Those peaks and nulls are probably room dimension related and not easily curable.
With that said if you like what you hear without the subs there is no need to have them in the system.
I’m in a similar place with my current setup. When I turn the subs off I really dont feel like I am missing anything in the music.
Life is good. 
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I like your way of thinking:
very often it is true, less is much better.
If the low frequencies are not totally under control, and in our rooms, this often happens, they can stifle the realism of the mid-high details.
I’ve started to notice this situation since I’ve been having fun with an “old” system that I temporarily moved to the attic.
This room will have to be renovated perhaps next spring, and now I have placed a hundred Auralex Studio Foam and I feel like I’m a child again.
Consider that the current system is made up of:
a 2000 Marantz AV SR-14
three Jamo LCR TWO (these are the LCRs from the 1999 Jamo System Two complete system that I own) are currently used as center channel and surround speakers.
The left and right front compartment is entrusted to Cerwin Vega E-715s (made in the USA).
Well, I don’t use subwoofers and I set the processor’s internal crossover to zero bass.
All channels on Small THX, except of course the two E-715s.
Guys, cinematic realism with a relatively cheap system.
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I add an aspect that I believe is quite important, mainly in the cinematographic field.
Air displacement expressed in square inches:
Ascendo SMSG32
803 square inches
n° 1 x 32" wooferMcIntosh PS2K
530 square inches
n° 4 x 13" woofersParadigm SUB2
471 square inches
n° 6 x 10" woofersAscendo SMSG24
452 square inches
n° 1 x 24" wooferM&K Sound X15+
353 square inches
n° 2 x 15" woofersArendal 1723 Subwoofer V2
286 square inches
n° 2 x 13.5" woofersSonus Faber Gravis VI
226 square inches
n° 2 x 12" woofersREL No. 32
176 square inches
n° 1 x 15" wooferREL No. 31
113 square inches
n° 1 x 12" wooferMagico A-SUB
78 square inches
n° 1 x 10" woofer
Note that a six-pack of REL No. 32 are 1,059 square inches.
As well as a six-pack of Ascendo SMSG24 equals 2,712 square inches.
They would cost the same though.
Some switched from two Paradigm SUB2s to two M&K Sound X15+ saying that despite the lower air movement they found them more convincing.
(942 square inches vs 706)
For those looking for strong emotions, there is also the Ascendo from, I checked, 80" about 5,024 square inches!
Ah, for those interested, Ascendo, upon request, also carries out customized glossy varnishing of its products.
Here is an example of the “small” 24:
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Given its price is very similar to REL No. 32, I added a Perlisten D215s to the list.
Very similar design to the M&K Sound X15+.
Well, Perlisten has one of the former M&K guys as the founder.
Also, Dan Roemer of perlisten worked for the company for a dozen years that developed the Ken Kriesel subwoofers (not related to M&K).
It’s a small world.
Personally, even though the inverted woofer reduces 2nd harmonic distortion, I don’t like the look of it (have the ass end of the woofer motor sticking out). Also, 2nd harmonic distortion doesn’t directly correlate with sound quality (it’s a symptom but not the cause, it’s more about the modulation distortion, which isn’t affected by the mounting).
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While there are some open toolings for 21, 24 and larger frames, it just doesn’t make sense to do them in a home audio context). Making the subwoofer small enough to be able to be used in multiple locations to solve room mode issues is a lot more critical to sound quality and I’d rather horizontally oppose a pair of 15"s or 18" for an equivalent displacement.
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Well, I think that KEF was the first to do what they call “force cancelling”. They used to do it with a metal rod connecting the magnet structures together.
in a full range speaker, this vibration reduction is audible but it’s not a significant impact to subwoofer because you can make the enclosure stiff enough and small enough to push the panel modes outside of the range of the subwoofer (a sub is only covering 2-3 octaves at most).
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Thank you! This is a fun discussion and I think that this subject could be expanded upon and maybe a white paper or video or something.
This is a lot of the fun of a forum like this as it’s a great topic with a lot of “meat” to it.
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Chris. I respect your opinion on all things speakers including subs. I have two questions related to (1) sub vertical stacks and (2) opposing driver designs. I think this is an accurate description of MBLS Extreme design.
The have also added some analog E.Q. and Q functions .
Radialstrahler loudspeaker system 101 X-Treme MKII
What are the advantages and disadvantages of these approaches? Maybe a separate thread on sub design is in order. I had one “professional” state that a tower stack design was unfortunate because he would prefer a swarm placement technique with 4 or more subs.
I am not Chris, but I find the idea of stacked subwoofers interesting.
I can imagine that in the right room, some modes can be smoothed out by elevating the LF transducers.
Interested in hearing what Chris and others might have to say about this subject…
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