Reel to Reel worth it?

Everything Else
21

Great insight, thanks! This is why it’s always important to know what people speak of when comparing whatever concept to another. Opinions based on one of them not on a state of the art level makes the opinion quickly obsolete although it might tepresent the truth for this one person.

Some would possibly argue things can’t be compared because just one of them was optimized into a setup…but I think that mostly differences (or in your case the absolute quality of such tapes) are so obvious when compared on a proper level, that no relevant space remains for discussion.

I’m sure the effort you invested has to be made to be aware of the potential, just as the effort to connect and isolate a DAC has to be made to properly judge its potential. Just in a way a planar speaker has to be placed to hear its potential. Just in a way one can see if a whatever great and ideally adjusted turntable can play anywhere near its potential by looking at the effort made for its electronic drive chain, isolation and resonance control. If one wants to compare seriously, he has to go that mile for each test object.

22

Hi guys Reel to Reel is reborn!

Check to Thorens site, they are launching a brant new Reel to Reel deck 100 pcs to start with at the Munich High End Messe:
https://www.thorens.com/de/aktuelles/thorens-news.html
they work together with Ballfinger:
http://www.ballfinger.de/tape-recorder-m-063-h5

One thing, do not forget your wallet, these impressive machines cost impressive money.

My dad has all 4 UHER Reel to Reel machines he ever bought. I consider it a really nice collection and sometimes I get to play with them. As a mechatronic minded engineer I consider these machines marvels of engineering.

We used to do fun stuff with them. I had a nice Braun Nizo camera with a super zoom, connected it to a modified UHER or Saba tape recorder, which had 4 track heads in which the 3rd head recorded trigger impulses from the camera. When the Super 8 film was developed the sync pulses of the cassette tape would be copied to the 3rd track of the Reel to Reel, and the microphone sound would be mixed with background music comments to the stereo tracks of the same reel to reel tape. All of it worked, together with my high school friends we made fun documentary of our week with exam class in the Schwarzwald. It was a couple of days work, by todays standards it’s all a couple of clicks away on our iMovie app in full HD. Not that I want to go back in time, but fiddling around wit all that stuff was fun.

Also just recording records on the reel to reel tapes, hours and hours with the Sennheiser headphones on listening to the music while it was recorded, via the monitoring head of the reel to reel machine listening to the recorded parts of course. now we stick a silver disk into a slot or drawer click on the rip button and download the titles from the internet.

Well that’s why I look forward to the Stellar Gain Cell DAC I can listen to all ripped music, downloaded DSD and High Res files, play my CD’s from the old Technics CD player running them through optical TOS link though the marvellous DAC and even be able to connect the Reel to Reel machine to the analog inputs whenever I want. I have a high quality QED tape monitor switch box that will enable me to perform old time recording as well. All nostalgic memories played back by modern technology amplification.

Just love it, fun comes to my mind.

23

Yeah I saw a FB post about the new Thorens Reel To Reel deck. Looks real nice.
11 grand is so steep tho! You could get a used Technics Reel to Reel deck for way under 10k. But this Thorens is brand new so… I guess thats the going rate for the new decks. Same with the new Ballfinger that came out last year. I think thats 10k minimum.

24

I have found that the old adage, “you get what you pay for” holds true when it comes to analog tape decks. You can certainly get more “bargain” priced R2R’s under $5K, but they will not outperform custom decks from companies like SonoruS or even this new production Thorens based on what was detailed in that article.

25

Wow this is an extremely interesting topic.

First of all, is there anyone here with a top open reel setup than can digitize some 7” masters I recorded in the late 80’s on a portable Nagra with schoeps mics in blumlein?

I would love to hear these tapes of local NYC anti folk musicians performing their own material, but have no way to do so. (I’m in NYC and have the pro gear to digitize at 192k in case someone has a good deck locally)

Jeff brings out many excellent points, about the need for superior analog stages to really be able to take advantage of the signal on the tapes.

The thing that would concern me is mostly the generation issue, since almost every commercially available tapes would be third generation at best. Aside from noise, the wow and flutter that accumulates with each copy is not to be discounted.

If you want to hear the effects of wow and flutter, speed, etc, just listen to a digital file done with the Plangent process. Many of the Grateful Dead releases after a certain point were done with Plangent, and all the Springsteen remasters used it.

The live Dead releases probably corrected the 1st generation master tape, while the Springsteen corrected the mixed down masters, which probably can’t correct the timing of the multi track masters.

After hearing the solidity of sound of the Springsteen remasters I was convinced this is a quite an improvement. (Born to run may not be a good example as the multi track session tapes were so worked upon by Bruce, they lost a lot of fidelity).

In contrast, with a digital file (preferably DSD) using the actual master is practical since it only has to be played once (after its been set up with proper azimuth, eq, etc)

While I applaud anyone who can take the long, strange (and expensive) trip open reel requires to truly hear it at its fullest, I feel like we haven’t fully heard top digital playback at its best to make a true comparison.

I would reserve judgement for when PS Audio’s server is released. Having heard the benefits of a simple Ethernet isolator has had on my system recently, I am predicting the server with its air gap isolation and dedicated software is going to usher in a new level of naturalness to digital playback.

The other comparison that would be interesting is open reel vs. a mobile fidelity one step pressing on a top quality analog rig (using a sota phono cart like my strain gauge) and floating on active isolation, as I have done.

26

A tape copy of the master is definitely a degradation. You may like that however. I remember when I was a boy my dad used to copy his most loved vinyls to tape in order to spare them. We listened to the tape copies instead of the LPs. I always liked the tape sound better: not as aggressive and… erm… fatiguing as the original. Meanwhile I’m a purist, I want to hear nothing but the unaltered signal. I still have dad’s Revox A77, but I wouldn’t dream of using it for serious listening or recording. When I was starting to record my own music in the mid 80’s, the final mix of my first finished work for a client went to a mastering studio where the final master was recorded to a Studer reel-to-reel (an A80, I think, it was) in my presence. Being the purist already at that time, I was just not amused. The difference in sound I heard from the tape plus the added noise floor, was too clear. But if you are into the beauties of analog, go for it, you will like it :grin:

27

I hope someday i can buy a cheap reel to reel “a la elemental” ;
i mean then the same price as pro-ject elemental turntable; or at least that some company try to make a new reel to reel so cheap as possible with so much good quality as possible, a first entry price level reel to reel :smiley:

Im not a technician but i still believe remastering old master tapes to reel to reel complete analog would be even better than vinyl and all music formats.

I had came across some reel to reel flac files (homemade) and i even like it more than the hdtrack version, and even when new tapes are coming to stores like elusivedisc;
https://elusivedisc.com/music/reel-to-reel-tape/#/sort:calculated_price:asc

still no entry level for people to get into reel to reel, i mean it was expensive then and it is now, why is it imposible to make it at least at normal price level like the price of vinyl today?

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28

technicians can if they want; still make reel to reel music tapes from pcm or dsd remasterings of the original master tapes;

meaning taking the dsd or pcm that had been remastered already and make direct copy to a blanc master tape and get it to the factory to make hundreds of reel to reel (like cassettes factory does)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMTpvr9HXeI

29

Except there are no mass “duplicator” machines for analog tape reel like there are for cassette tape. Cassette tapes were a mainstream retail media format - 10.5" reels were not.

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Maybe if somebody that had much money (“a la Rockefeller”) is interesting it can be possible to make mass duplicator for analog tapes machines?

31

I don’t understand the line-of-thinking which would presume, that: (somehow?) using an unadulterated direct safety copy of a master tape to run duplicates off of onto, essentially, THE SAME MEDIA is, in some form, (apparently?) less sonically-faithful or more compromised than; all the eq futzing and compression a lathe cutting engineer adds to the LP master to etch stampers from(?). I mean, THAT entire step in the procedure is eliminated when talking about open reel duplication. Even during the heyday of Ampex in the '60s trying to make pre-recorded reels a then-viable format, there was often an immediate difference in the bass and soundstage of a 7 1/2ips reel vs. the record of a particular album (Hell: even the 3 3/4ips Ampex 1969 reel of Led Zep II, for example, is the closest to the famed Ludwig pressing in loudness!). Obviously, I’d think(?): the boutique duplicator houses today are going to have ten-times better quality control than Ampex had in the '60s (which was already being bested by the likes of Magtec and Barclay-Crocker by 1977).

Another point is: getting a (quality/“tank-built”) deck produced BEFORE, I’d say: 1973, will respond A LOT BETTER to overhauls and modding without a total ditching of the stock electronics because, the biggest reason for the uninspired sound quality of later decks (except, IMO, the Tandberg TD20) is attributable to the designs of the line stages all becoming full of op-amps and ICs to handle equalization and gain as the format was fading from consumer use (at the time: the parts were cost cutting garbage supplied by Toshiba to economize on board real estate by supplanting the function of, often, six previously discrete transistors). The late-'70s and '80s decks may look all Stealth Fighter and badass…but: they DON’T have the midrange transparency and detail of, say: 1960s Magnecorders or a Revox G36.

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32

a interesting Reading :

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33

I own a DMP/DS Combo (thousands of CDs, a lot of highres burnt to DVD and I use Quobuz) , a very good TT (+about 5000 LPs) plus a “simple” REVOX B77 + about 100+ prerecorded tapes (mostly classic and jazz) from the 50s/60s/70s, and I love the sound of RTR immensely! Incredible dynamics (more than most digital stuff nowadays) and completely free of mechanical (innergroove) distortion, even during the loudest parts of the music. Everything comes completely effortless. Even with 60 years old tapes, 4 track and “only” 7 1/2. There is enough music left to make me smile…

Here another prominent “believer”:

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34

I just remember from my B77 times, that when vinyl is slow food, this was snail food in terms of switching “albums or tracks”. Something for the very patient :wink:

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35

Yes and no…when I listen to a symphony or most of my jazz albums, I have no desire to switch tracks. Listening to one album side and take a short break thereafter is perfect for me…when I REALLY listen.

That said RTR is something for special moments and sound quality can be still astonishing… If the prices would be lower, I really could imagine to use it as a serious source for my most cherished music. Eventually I would be ready to pay 50€ -100€ for a 4 track - but 450€ are way to steep. They can buy me a lot of good records or SACDs. In the meantime I pick up one or another Tape on ebay, although the times, when You had to pay 10 ´15 bucks are sadly over…

36

I have owned a UHER Royal Reel to Reel with a stereo set of Telefunken cardoit microphones. I gave it back to my dad who owns the big 12” reel Uher Omega drive with exchangeable head sets, 2 generation of UHER Royal a small size, a Tandberg and Revox.

Slow: Yes slower than a tap on a touchscreen
Maintenance: Oh dear, O rings, rubber wheels, corroding shafts and tone heads need a lot of attention

Fun: mega, so much you could do with these marvels of mechatronic engineering.

So many options:

  • 1/2 tape width 2 track pickups (Toneheads)
  • full tape width 4 track pickups
  • full tape width 2 track pickup

At school we used it to record own compiled and played musical and theatre sessions and road trips, a Synton synchronizer, let’s say the predecessor of the masterclock than ensured that the double or super 8 celluloid films would lip sync with the audio by putting a tone pulse every 4 or 10 pictures on the 4th track of the tape. That way we were able to use the 3rd track for comments or background music and the 2 first the racks for the stereo recording.

We were the audio masters of the universe at that time with our yellow colored foam pad Sennheiser headphones.

The 2 track full width tone head we mounted to copy vinyl. But experience was that we would buy the record 2 months later as it was indeed faster to put the record on than the tape.

Now, when I see the Reel to Reel’s at my dads place, I like to hit the fast forward and rewind buttons on the 12” machine, to see the mechanics move precisely in place and heat the power of the motors transferred in wind noise by the openings in the reels. Same ritual as opening and closing well designed CD drawer mechanisms.

You don’t just get that experience on a computer or touch screen anymore. When you went through that experience you appreciate the comfort options and ease today’s digital technology and the software packages have to offer.

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37

I have to agree R t R machines, the good ones, are a thing of beauty - more so than Turntables IMHO, great to play with, line up, clean tape path etc. etc.
Elctro-mechanical marvels, and if I had endless cash to splash I would have one again, just to play with :slight_smile:

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38

Hi John, my dad only bought the 12” RtR new at a time they were more or less still affordable. I believe he had 190 nights out of home for trouble shooting machines in foundries in the outer corners of this planet that year. The the others are used machines at shambles he bought for a couple of Deutsch Marks and repaired them him self. Your posts remind me very much of my dad’s hobbies. They all work flawless.

You could look on eBay and try to do the same. If you interested I’ll keep you in mind when I see one on eBay.

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39

Ah that#s kind of you, thanks :slight_smile:
I decided a little while back that R to R, and valves, should remain a thing from my past - it was (relatively) cheap then, or I was using pro gear not owned by me, and valve stuff (and the valves) were being given away in the 70s / 80s.
If I try and buy and follow that path, it will distract time (and money) from other more worthy causes (better amps and the like), and I will fall down the rabbit hole :wink:

I may come across a reel to reel at some point, but I am not going to go looking!

I do have some tapes from the early 90s (half inch and quarter inch) but of course much of the tape stock from that era was flawed - i’d probably have better luck with my dad’s old stash of quarter track quarter inch reels from the 60s!

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great for you :upside_down_face: