Subwoofers - Need and Setup

This is exactly correct. That is what I was going to say, but have been gone for a few days.

I’m not going to go into details as to why and how as you already did in your other excellent post.

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DSP can only do so much.

DSP can possibly tame peaks, but it can’t do squat with nulls, especially really deep nulls. The ONLY way to combat those is with physical means, such as moving gear and your listening seat.

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Thinking about it a little bit more, I have noticed a certain trend in this thread (as well as many others on the net) about loudspeakers and subwoofers.

Everyone boasts about their mains being flat down to 30, 25, 20 Hz, etc, etc. That doesn’t matter, as Elk explained earlier and as I have said multiple times, your loudspeakers aren’t placed in the room for optimal bass response. At least I hope they’re not.

I have a pair of NHT 2.9’s in the spare room that easily hit down to around 18 Hz in-room with it’s 10" sealed woofers. My current Martin Logan SL3’s also easily reach down into the mid to lower 20’s in-room with their 10" sealed woofers. I measured both with both REW and my dbx Driverack Venu 360, with basically identical results. Accompanied with all of that great extension was also several mild peaks and deep nulls.

Adding my JL e110 subs with their 10" sealed woofers (after many hours of placement and dialing in of crossover/phase/gain), reduced those nulls by well over half to three-quarters of what they were originally without the subs. The peaks weren’t really altered that much, the strongest one increasing by about 2 dB around 25 Hz IIRC.

Peaks, especially at lower frequencies are a LOT easier to live with than nulls are at any frequency. Nulls of almost any amount are always a lot more noticeable than most mild peaks.

Allowing the mains to play fullrange, even with the SL3’s dropping off around 23 -25 Hz in-room, what output they have below that point helps reinforce the JL’s output to 18 Hz that much more, making the subs seem/feel like much larger, more powerful subs.

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Amen! You can dump all the energy you want into a black hole . . . er, null. All it will do is get bigger.

DSP is akin to stability control on a car. Neither can overcome the laws of physics and both offer only assistance. The main job remains your responsibility.

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A friend lent me a pair of LS50 Meta’s and I’d never heard the original LS50’s other than the hype and Wife Approval Factor.

Anyways, they need Bass extension no matter what. The hype is real and I really love how let me forget the technology that whatever I play through them was recorded/mastered in (DSD is still my #1).

So I took the good working pair of KEF 105/3’s (Bass Section only) and using my miniDSP created a curve that worked best in my room while letting me listen to the Meta’s without the 105/3’s getting in the way. Of course I moved the 105/3’s away from the LS50’s and put them in spots the best benefits the room.

Perfect. People that have a hate on for DSP (especially for Bass), I just don’t understand where they are coming from. Hell, I had to use DSP on a pair of $6k Speakers (also were on loan) to boost the Bass and bring up the Treble without mucking up the critical midrange. I’m also using a DSSr. So there’s the other argument as to why would you feed a $6k DAC into a $100 miniDSP box and then out to your amp & Speakers.

That’s a discussion in another recent Forum around here.

Just my 2 Canadian cents (worth barely a Penny here in the U.S.) :slightly_smiling_face:

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Because what we are discussing here is taming/tuning the room for optimal bass response, especially for the nulls. It doesn’t matter how much power, how much EQ, how much DSP you throw at a system. If you don’t make physical changes within the room, such as moving the speakers, subwoofers, listening seat to the best locations possible, you’re still going to end up with those same exact nulls and with the same exact issue in the sound, just made worse by the extra power, EQ and DSP.

None of those technologies can overcome the power of the nulls.

I’m not against DSP. I just prefer not to use it in my system, and if I had to use it, I’d make as much physical corrections as possible in the room first so I had to only use a little DSP as possible.

Think about having a 200 horsepower 2WD truck stuck in the mud. Adding another 200, 500, 800 horsepower to the same truck in the same situation is only going to dig the hole you’re already in deeper, faster.

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A good simile.

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i hope to have the knowledge you guys have someday, i really enjoy reading about it

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Subs can take a system to the next level for those who indulge. Would suggest embracing knowledge and technology because the ladder can work for you and your system as well. Technology is not a problem in and of itself, it’s the implementation.

In fact though, some technology is hype and some is incredibly useful assuming the user understands how to properly use it. Most have seen aTesla Auto Pilot story in which someone has died. There is a reason it’s called a driver assistance system and not a self driving system. DSD recordings in the hands of Gus Skinas would be a great example of well executed use of technology.

iOS, DSD, DSP, Nest, ESP, ABS, DSG, side assist, shift assist pro, hill hold are all good in moderation.

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Of course #1 is the room and how it’s treated. I had extremely nice acoustic in our fully carpeted Apartment previously. Now the home we bought is 100% ceramic tile and drywall. The echo chamber that was my listening room/living room has been subtly treated with six Absorption “spunges” (two mounted on the ceiling above my listening area, one at each 1st reflection point, and two at the front corners of the room as sorta kinda Bass Traps). Adding a throw rug and underpadding beneath was also a big help. Next up are some homemade Diffusers. The room is not perfect and needs more work. The slap test is much improved from what it was.

The Sofa never fit in the doorways so I kept the cushions before tossing the Sofa Frame :face_with_symbols_over_mouth:. Thrown around the back of my room (behind the listening area helps tame the highs (reflections of course are still in the room).

The miniDSP though is critical in my rig WRT setting up the LPF and the gain of the KEF 105/3’s Bass Section (not using the KUBE curve of course).

I’m a Bass Freak but it’s meant to be felt not heard unless it’s intentional (say an Upright Bass or the Batter hitting the Head of a Kick Drum (more midrange I guess).

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room modes + timing

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Just reading through the post and I notice your comment. Do you actually believe the Vivid Audio GIVA Spirit speaker with 2 - 9" woofers per speaker can do 10 Hz?

Whoever wrote that article might have had a few :beers: before doing the measurements.

I need to find a dealer so I can hear these speakers.

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This is a bit hard to accept.

I have a subwoofer which specs 8 Hz to 95 Hz ±3 dB, but it has an 18" driver.

@aangen is the review on-line?

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GIYA specified the G1 Spirit to deliver 25Hz at -6dB.

Quote from above site:
29 – 33,000 Hz +/- 2dB on reference
It doesn’t matter what I believe, I just passed along what I read.
It doesn’t matter to me, it really doesn’t.

The review is online:

Quote:
The bass is profound , totally distortion free to ungodly house shaking levels , its tight , but its a bass that is not often heard but felt … there is NOTHING this speaker can not handle in the bass … you can go from dub to organ , to electronica , whatever… you will NEVER come close to unsettling the Spirits…My devialets also have something to do with it , running 500w per chan … but these speakers can take 1.6KW!!! …92 DB efficiency. I recon they can go close to 120db at 3m
You do NOT a sub with these speakers , their bass section will outperform almost all subs…

PS DIRAC measures my bass as -2b down at 10hz!!! … and we are talking pretty high levels here

From Stereophiles review:
“The two opposed woofers—which, like all Vivid drivers, feature aluminum-alloy diaphragms, and which I measured as 11” in diameter (although Vivid specs them at 8.9")—fire from both sides at the bottom of the cabinet, their backsides connected with an internal brace that neatly cancels any reaction between the woofers and the cabinet. "

I am amused by this, really. If your feel strongly that you have to speak out against this, so be it.
I am going to listen to these speakers at Kyomi Audio in Chicago next week.
I will not be bringing test equipment with me.

I own and deeply appreciate REL subwoofers.

I am now aware that this came from ASR who I believe are a bunch of goofballs. Sorry.

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Thanks for sharing the info and your experience. With subs phase alignment with the main speakers and avoiding room modes are mission critical. Moreover, you need to minimise frequency overlaps (crossover) to have better fidelity. Some subwoofer manufacturers provide frequency cut off pre-sets for speakers of the same brand in addition to DSP that prevents room modes and facilitate both phase alignment and placement of the sub.
However, I would rather have a system with two satisfying full range speakers and support that. Satisfying ones ears, not figures on paper, aye!

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I am currently very, very, very pleased with my REL subs and my Wilson Yvettes.
I think subs can be a very good thing.
I was just amused at the thought that one could buy a full range speaker and not need a sub.
But then people use enormous Wilson subs with Chronosonic XVX speakers…

Yup, once in the zone of a niche you would not have my concerns. Lol

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The best thing I can say to Rodney Gold (ASR Reviewer) is a quote from the movie My Cousin Vinny. Does the law of physics cease to exist in your kitchen? Just replace kitchen with room. 10Hz from 2 - 8.9" subs in each speaker has to be the greatest magic trick in history.

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Can someone run another test at 10Hz to confirm Vivid Audio member’s measurements. Those who dispute might appreciate another affirmation. My ears don’t even know what 10Hz sounds like. I will wait for the results before I decide to buy.