The Day Has Come

Everything Else
61

Sorry, foot in mouth syndrome, I blundered. Indeed the DMS 800PV is a dac/streamer using a commercial AK4499EQ dac chip.

I read your post too fast and did not google the model number because I was in conversation with a couple folks during dinner about 2 camps (analog/digital) both claiming the same goal: the sound quality of live music – instruments/vocalists/stage.

Digital hi-res/dsd market this goal as has vinyl producers much longer. All this is reminiscent of another 50+ year hobby: photography…film vs digital. For many reasons other than quality digital has taken over, even with me. But for the most serious photography you will see a large-format film camera show up in the studio or those big landscapes.

I expressed my surprise that a vocal minority of the digital camp here see me as a fool for noticing that digital and analog sound different and my questioning that digital accomplishes as much as vinyl toward the common objective of live sound quality. Even my call to PSA last Thursday exploring the DSD MkII dac and Stellar phono amp did not make this claim.

We are far away from reaching this goal. Regardless of the weight of the amps and speakers and their price, both have yet reached the full fidelity of actual instruments/voices/sound halls. It is very easy to tell the difference of an actual instrument/vocalist/stage in front of you compared to either vinyl or digital. How, because they are comprised of entirely different anatomies and business interests.

Vinyl comes closer but good digital sounds quite good in the absence of vinyl.

What surprised me today is in my Octave vinyl/dsd comparison. All Octave products begin as dsd, and in the case of vinyl is converted to analog. (MOFI had a bit of an issue close to this last year, detailed in a separate and lively thread last year.)

What I found was that my 20-year-old analog playback produces better SQ than Octave dsd files…at least for the 2 albums tested having both versions from the ‘same’ dsd starting point.

This matched my previous comparisons between good hi-res material and vinyl of the same performance. Sufficiently resolving systems readily reveal the difference in SQ. I have not yet heard a digital system with the richness etc of vinyl. Although many have found pleasing dacs mostly other than PSA’s, only one digital setup has been recommended to me that would do this, but it costs about $200,000 with tax and its alleged performance would presume other hi-priced and very heavy components and proper room in addition.

Of course, perhaps the common goal of live SQ is not truly common, and that digital and analog are forever separate worlds, each having a separate sound to reach for as has been bluntly pointed out here to diminish my interest in better sounding digital. OK. But fools errands for me and those pushing the envelope of digital to greater heights and SQ (eg, Paul).

Streaming digital is very good, and presumably will be getting better yet. Good news. Good digital is far cheaper than good vinyl; it would take millions in vinyl to match the content of a subscription for a hundred dollars a year.

As I have noted, most of my listening is and will be digital for the reasons enumerated.

I have not heard the Cary phono amp you love. I have my sights on a different one as I assemble a new analog/digital system.

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I have the VT-500. Was itching to try an all tube (well, ok, with built-in SUTs) phono pre and couldn’t resist carydirect sale pricing during the holidays. Has an outboard, tube rectified power supply to boot. Broke down all resistance to spending greenbacks on yet another phono pre. Popped in a sweet NOS 5AR4 I happened to have in my tube box, replacing the Sovtek rectifier. This unit is a honey. Love listening to it.

63

As much as I enjoy music played on vinyl (OK, most of the time) I listen to digital most of the time as well. I’m really am not asking for digital that sounds just like vinyl. I would be satisfied if digital could just deliver the dynamics and transparency that I sometimes hear from vinyl. With all the money invested in digital playback over the last 40 years I wouldn’t think that is too much to ask.

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64

agreed

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For you, on your system, with these particular sources.

They are not better, just different.

You are not going to find the best digital sounds like vinyl, nor does the best vinyl sound like digital. They are inherently different.

I do not claim digital or vinyl is better. Only that you can throw a much money at a Bentley as you want, it still will not feel like a high performance spots car. And vice versa.

If nothing else, look at the specs and measurements. :slight_smile:

I suggest instead putting one’s energy in finding the format which sounds to you the most like music - avoiding the square peg in the round hole entirely.

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66

As much as I enjoy the sound of vinyl there is no way I could exclude digital. Digital does deliver a lot of advantages that’s inherent to the format. Take care of some of these sonic problems, that also seem to be inherent to digital, and it would be killer. Some report that DACs that I never will be able to afford may have made real progress towards these issues. Gives me hope that all is not lost for the format.

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67

@joma0711,

Perhaps the one you showed makes the records sound that much better? Or maybe the handle is made with special unobtanium plastic :rofl:

DEWALT Black and Gold 9/32-in x 4-5/16-in Black and Gold Coated Hss Twist Drill Bit in the Twist Drill Bits department at Lowes.com

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Agreed

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Long live Bentley and Ferrari, if not by brand then by endeavor.

Long live vinyl, digital, master tapes, dsd, Octave Records, PSA, quest for improvement, diversity and competition, and price sanity.

Even more important, long live music, performers, audience, and aspiration.

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70

I wager $100 that the vinyl/digital SQ I posted here is readily apparent in any average or better resolving system.

I suppose I should exempt the $200,000 digital setup recommended to me, but I note that that recommender plays vinyl to best show off his best ware at audio shows as do many of the rooms at these shows. Of course, some also demonstrate digital components that they sell. ‘It’s business’ as they say.

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Michael Fremer routinely brings a CD he has burned of his high end vinyl system to shows which participants and exhibitors declare to be wonderful, with sound better than the same recording on CD. He digitizes his vinyl with an extremely modest pro ADC/recorder ($1,000 - $1,500).

He also posts digital files of various phono pres on his website to compare their sound.

That is, digital has no difficulty capturing vinyl. If this was not true, his show CD would be nothing special.

Mastering to vinyl and cutting the master does change the sound of a digital file, by addition or subtraction. Some find this compelling; others, not.

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72

MF found another fan

got this pic today from thread, Quote of the Day

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73

That’s interesting. I’ve seen him bring a stick many times, but never a CD.

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a point I have been making, good stuff on vinyl that in MF’s hands can, he says, produce a better CD than the commercial CD

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My experience as well, and from what I understand the digital files provided at shows and on line for comparative purposes are a matter of convenience, not necessarily confirming one format or another.

Personally I align with old school analog, vinyl in this case, as that is what I own and continue to purchase.
Nothing wrong with digital, and I do like it for (1) its convenience, (2) access to bands I like as many indie bands/jazz players I listen to now release digitally direct to BandCamp or similar platforms, and (3) streaming Qobuz to explore music I may consider adding to my collection.

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I am sorry, I do not know the format he carries for the digital files.

I just find striking the reports that the digital needle drops capture the sound of vinyl.

That is, digital is in no way inadequate or inherently deficient.

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If this is directed at me, this is incorrect.

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I always find Fremer’s insistence that CD’s sound is inherently horrible, to be unreal and annoying.

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79

And silly

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But was relied upon and posted on the internet this morning to diminish my consistent finding ever since CDs were introduced with lesser SQ than good vinyl playback, insulting with his fool’s errand characterization yesterday for my long search for better digital SQ.

However, digital has many other attributes that appeal to most of us and drives substantial purchases by forum members, including myself. I have no regret whatsoever and I’ll also make a significant dac purchase once I confirm the SQ claims are true.

Paul’s goal of better digital SQ is appreciated.

(there would be little use for DSD if CDs were not deficient and Paul would be wasting his time with Octave Records and PSA dacs and dsd workflow. DSD superiority over CD and typically hi-res over CD is readily apparent, vinyl more so)