I was interested in the M700 and then later after learning about some updates that 1200 has over the 700, I considered purchasing it to replace my Adcom 555. However, after seeing the 2 circuits boards inside the M1200, it seems the costs for them and the time to put them in a rack does not justify the cost of a $7,000 amp. Granted there are R&D costs and the company has to make money on the equipment they sell and your getting 2 mono amps. But if you look inside a McIntosh or Parasound amp, there are so many components inside with a huge transformer(s). I can have a better understanding why these amps with high-end expensive components cost so much.
Perhaps someone can fill me in on what I am missing regarding the PS Audio pricing.
You’re comparing class D amp internals to class A/B amp internals. For a better comparison on the PS Audio side, look into the BHK amps. Personally, I find the value of the M700s hard to beat.
Exactly, I am comparing Class D which has less parts to the more expensive cost of Class A/B. I don’t understand why they cost so similar. Look at the McIntosh MC312 which is similar in price to the M1200. Very heavy expensive parts in the McIntosh with a lot of time needed to assemble. Its almost like PS Audio was thinking, the M1200 is on par with the MC312 regarding being a high end quality amp (which I believe it is). Therefore we need to charge around the same price even though it cost sooo much less to make the M1200. So your not really paying for something that is expensive to make which is the reason why I did not purchase the M1200.
Its hard to see someone’s thought process and attitude when typing on a post, but I have a lot of respect for PS Audio and know they make some of the most incredible gear that sounds amazing. I just am trying to see if I am missing something with the pricing on some of the gear.
For what it may be worth, a couple of years ago I compared my McIntosh MA7900 to the PSAudio M700 amps. BTW I believe the successor to the MA7900 was about 9K when I checked back then. Anyway, after doing a listening test, I immediately put the McIntosh up for sale because there was no way it could compete soundwise with the M700s. In fairness, the Mac included trim adjustments, an onboard DAC (not a great one), and the (expensive) blue meters and glass front, and who can deny the coolness factor of McIntosh amps? But those cool features subtracted from what McIntosh could spend on what you hear, so this comparison isn’t as direct as you might wish. But the bottom line is: the M700 amps sounded a LOT BETTER to me. Good luck with your search & happy listening!
To your point, i have never heard a Class D that beats a Class A (i.e. Pass) or a good quality A/B. Maybe thats just me but they dont. They have gotten a ton better and the 700 certainly shows that. Probably 1200 too. I have not heard the 1200.
I love Mac and always will. But when i was in my “detail” phase i ran Pass and Dyn. My guess is thats where D may have its strong points.
I currently have a Gan Fet D and it sounds fine. I use it for background. But for real listening, its tube monos or A/B. Night and day difference at least on my space.
Also to your point, you would think a D is cheaper and easier to produce. Mac amps, Pass etc are not 100lbs by accident.
I am glad you purchased an amp that you like. But I am not talking about what you prefer which is subjective. I am talking about the cost to make a M700 or M1200 vs class A/B amps of high quality. Are we to say, since I like it better than Brand X, I am willing to pay thousands of dollars for it as it competes with the big boys price even though it costs thousands less to make?
My understanding was that PS Audio typically prices its gear by taking the total cost of components and then multiplying that number by a fixed constant (such as 5). This ensures that there is sufficient income from sales to cover the costs of R&D, personnel, overhead, marketing, discounts, etc. Perhaps Paul M @Paul may decide to comment on these issues to clarify further.
From personal experience, I can say that the M700 amps sound significantly better in my system than the Adcom 555 amp they replaced. The M700s sound much more lively and dynamic in comparison.
Parts count is not necessarily indicative of the quality of an amp. We have no way of knowing the true costs of product development.
One of my favorite amps is practically an empty box.
IMHO the PSA gear is one of the best values for money spent in the industry.
They spend most of the construction cost money on components and less on the casework which adds no true value to the piece.
If nothing else they are a true gateway drug into the really expensive stuff which cannot be valued by it’s cost alone but also it’s aesthetic. Twice the price does not equal twice the performance.
With that said it is impossible (so far) for class D to equal or outperform class A simply due to the science behind the classes.
Now if Class A did not by design have to be such a waste of power.
That’s one of the reasons I am looking at the NAT Magneto. It “only” uses 220 watts of power to produce 100 watts of pure Class A output (2.20 / 1). And they have a low power setting of 30 watts output that reduces the input power accordingly (66 watts). That’s about 1/3 of what my beloved Pass amps use (600 in vs 160 out or 3.75 / 1)
I already purchased an amp a while ago and am very happy with it. But I don’t want to get into that, that is not the purpose of the post.
My post is to get a better understanding on the cost for making these very good PS Audio gear when the components inside don’t appear to justify the cost to someone looking from the outside in. All the PSA Audio fans who love their gear, keep enjoying it. I am not saying they are over priced, I am looking for some clarification on the high cost when there does not appear to be a lot of cost for the components or the time to put them in their metal box.
I agree part count does not indicative of the quality of the amp. PS Audio is proof of that as their amps sound great. I am an audio engineer and when I look at a Manley Massive Passive EQ, I see all the cost and labor it takes to assemble the unit. I found the high price for this EQ is justified, but things like the M700 or M1200, that just have two circuit boards, I don’t. There is no need to defend PS Audio because you own their gear which your happy with. I am just looking for the back up support for the costs, I wont’ bother to respond on this thread if things get unproductive.
IMO one of the less talked about things holding back class D is that people don’t look at the power supply the same way they would for class A. Just as much as having a good power supply matters in a class A amp, it matters in class D, but people (and many manufacturers) just use the standard Hypex/Icepower supplies and go no further.
