There are lots of opinions on that one. It depends on your cables, amp, speakers, your favorite listening levels, etc. If you have the budget perhaps try a BHK pre or other reasonably good preamp. Then you’ll know and can decide if the difference is worth it to you.
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People that deny facts and cry witch hunt have NO credibility IMO.
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… I’m using a DSD Sr. directly connected to active loudspeakers by Neumann (KH 420). No problems at all. Especially no hiss, no noise. I compared two settings: with attenuator and level 2 input-volume (middle) on the loudspeaker side, against without attenuator and level 1 input-volume (very low) on loudspeaker side. The last setting sounds much better in my opinion: more direct, more involving, more natural. With that setting the volume-range normally lies between 50 and 90 on the DSD display, depending on the overall record level. I never missed a preamp.
Agreed. The post is unnecessarily snarky.
We do not close threads merely because they contain unpopular or controversial opinions.
The thread eventually reached positive equilibrium. And there is some good stuff in here.
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Hi Ted,
Now, would it matter if pre-amp is high-end or not? I use a 9-ch receiver for my HT and pre-amp purposes, feeding a nice 2-ch amp for my stereo.
So, what would be best? Connecting the DS to my receiver input then to my Amp via RCA? OR, connecting it directly to my amp via Balanced cables? Would a pre-amp in a receiver work better than your volume control in the DS or DS Jr?
Some HT amps do all of their processing in the digital domain: i.e. they convert everything to analog, do various processing (including volume) and then use a D/A.
But if you have a DAC you can certainly try it for yourself to see what you think.
The volume control in the DS is lossless: if you get your preamp set right you may like using the DS’s volume more than the preamps (or not)
We want Ted to recognize the disease at a distance and prescribe the best medicine for each of us. It is impossible. Ted points the way, but only we listening to our equipment, through trials, can work out the optimal solution.
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…and here I thought it was about listening to music…
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I have read a lot of this thread and the ASR thread and what I find most disappointing are not the measurements or our reactions to them.
Amir appears to be well respective and knows what he’s doing. It’s also clear he’s got some biases which is his prerogative. Without going into his character he offers a great service. And Ted is awesome as we know.
What is disturbing is the name calling and close mindedness on both sides. At ASR it’s mostly laughing about the high end (and it is sometime laughable) and here it’s calling them “measurebators” and the like. Boiled down to basics, ASR would rather rely only on measurements to judge something and PS only on our ears. Both are wrong in my opinion.
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You are right, but the reference to medicine is justified. Let’s face it, most people think that the right doctor should take care of us.
I’d say there’s no manufacturer not relying on measurements, too (and in the first place before judging further by ear). But I think comments like this are made in full awareness of their non credibility…but why…just to polarize?
Ted does not rely only on his ears. In fact, his design simulations are all centered around improving the theoretical measured performance of the DAC. And measurements are done. It has essentially ruler flat Frequency response. It has a signal to noise ratio which is better than early CD players (which were referred to as having “perfect sound forever” by the measurements-only crowd of the time). And despite what Amir claims, the DS can measurably, and verifiably resolve signals way below its noise floor, when this is measured using an FFT.
It’s not that measurements don’t matter, its that the measurements that Amir is arbitrarily assigning a great deal of meaning too actually are completely inaudible (and therefore irrelevant) in most real world circumstances. The only exception being the noise floor, which if you are running a DS without a preamp, has the potential to pose a real issue in some systems. But that is one of the reasons why it is recommended to use the DS with a preamp.
The unfortunate truth about audio is that, for the most part, measurements other than frequency response don’t really tell you how a given piece of equipment is going to sound. But since every decent amp and DAC out there is essentially ruler flat, this potentially meaningful measurement actually tells you nothing about the sonic differences between amps or DACs which all have flat response.
Amir had no interest in being persuaded about any of this, He just wants to demagogue. And the reason why some of us inside of this thread have gotten a bit testy, is because after repeating ourselves multiple times and having our points completely ignored over and over and over by some of the haters, it is extremely difficult not to become frustrated at how incredibly closed minded some people are when it comes to this kind of discussion.
Amir clearly wants to hurt PS Audio, and I strongly suspect that he has likely inflicted real financial harm upon this great company. And this does tend to tick-off some of us happy customers.
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Agreed - a couple of thoughts though:
“The unfortunate truth about audio is that, for the most part, measurements other than frequency response don’t really tell you how a given piece of equipment is going to sound.”
Even FR doesn’t really tell you - taking vinyl vs. digital as an example. But it sorta does if you Believe it Does, or if that predisposition leads you to never listen to or purchase products that don’t measure how you would like them to.
“I strongly suspect that he has likely inflicted real financial harm upon this great company”
I doubt that very much.
My criterion for electronics evaluation:
1- Reputable, established company making for audiophiles
2a - If amp: read the specs only watts into 8, 4, then 2 ohm (if published) (is it beefy?)
2s - If speakers…read specs only load across frequency (is it difficult?)
3 - How it sounds.
I don’t care about measurements any more. I used too. Back in the 70s when I was a teenager, I succumbed to the THD and watts wars. I got burnt… over it.
I love music, not equipment.
BTW: I started a Measurements thread if you want to discuss what measurements you use here:
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/acid-test-measurements-what-do-you-look-for/13222
Peace
Bruce in Philly
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I’m a hopeless gear-head. And I still don’t give a flying pitoooot about measurements.
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I think you know by now that he did post the version screen at the beginning of the article. IMO your response is defensive. Let’s have a reasoned discussion and address the issue. Either his measurements are technically flawed (unlikely but possible) or he’s got a point to address. Subjective preferences are a real possibility so let’s explore in a factual way how measurements may or may not be of value.
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I don’t know Amir and I can’t say whether he has an agenda or not - but I highly doubt it. He uses a standardized set of measurements on all DACs and the chips fall where they may. How about offering an analysis of which charts reveal “inaudible” faults and which measurements reveal audible differences? It’s also fair to say “I like my food with salt” and show (objectively) where PS is adding the flavor enhancer.
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I really feel bad for this dead horse…
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Give it up!
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