Any Updates on the TIDAL MQA 16/192 Issue?

Thanks Ted - That sure would be interesting if it turns out the DS is simply displaying the truth of what it’s getting (as opposed to there actually being a problem).

Ted Smith said

This is actually more evidence that the 192/16 that some are getting is correct. I don’t know why people are worried about the low bits in MQA - they don’t have low bits of the audio at any time, the low bits of the audio were mostly nuked (or dithered into the higher bits) before the folding process began and instead the low bits of each MQAified sample are used to reconstitute the (high bits of) new samples when unfolding to higher sample rates. That’s just how MQA works.

Hi Ted. I am not worried but simply interested as to why the DS display used to report 24/192 on these TIDAL MQA 192k streams and now the DS display is reporting 16/192. Did TIDAL change something? Did MQA change something? Did ConversDigital change something? Did PS Audio change something?

Below is a picture I took in July 2017, when I had Huron and Bridge II firmware v3.3.3 installed, showing 24 bits on a TIDAL MQA 192k stream. Any ideas as to what – if anything – changed to cause the DS to now report 16 bits on the same track? (See Jeff’s post at #15, above.) Thanks, and happy New Year.

I don’t know what changed, I don’t keep track of most of the Bridge work.

My point is simply that displaying 16 or 18 instead of 24 is not necessarily wrong. I don’t know if there’s a bug somewhere, if there is it may be before the DS (perhaps just revealed using the new function in the DS.)

I do know that if 24 is displayed on MQA decoded to 176.4 or 192k then it’s wrong (or at least very simplistic) to assume that the bottom bits have any of the lower bits of the audio that was originally there. 16 or 18 bits of original audio is much closer to reality than 24 bits in MQA at those high rates.

People might consider calling the issue of not knowing why we are seeing 16 or 18 an issue or question and not calling it a bug or assuming it’s a bug.

Ted Smith said

People might consider calling the issue of not knowing why we are seeing 16 or 18 an issue or question and not calling it a bug or assuming it’s a bug.


It is an anomaly, and one without explanation as to the cause. If the Control app is displaying 24/192, and it used to display 24/192 on the DSD with Huron/BII 3.3.3, it deserves investigation to the point of a definitive explanation. Speaking for myself, I really don’t care who/what is the cause as long as it can be accurately identified and explained. If it is not affecting SQ, that would be very comforting to know. For me, MQA weighed significantly on my decision to purchase this piece of hardware.

And Ted, I know the Bridge is not your baby so I will look to Paul/PS Audio crew for resolution. Hopefully they will chime in here post-holidays. I do however appreciate your input here in thinking this through.

I guess we owners of the DS Jr. do not have to worry about this issue since only rate and not bits appear on the screen. My new DS Jr. with Redcloud shows MQA"." 192 PCM on the screen for the Tidal Doors album in question with 24/192 on McControl. I also use Amarra 4 Luxe to decode MQA and feed the DS Jr. via USB. Amarra 4 seems to only unfold to 96 on the DS Jr. screen, even though Amarra 4 shows 192 after the MQA symbol. I have a note pending to the Amarra people and hope to have an answer soon.

Toggling back and forth between the Bridge II/ethernet input with 192 unfolding and the USB 96 unfolding reveals better space and clarity through the Bridge. Is this improvement the unfolding or the ethernet vs. USB method of delivery? Any community thoughts here?

Playing the Tidal 16/44 file of Utopia/Bjork through the Bridge II/ethernet as compared to the same file through Amarra 4 and USB revealed some of the better space and clarity in the Bridge II connection. The same exercise with a Bill Evans album did not have as much difference between the inputs. Am I hearing the difference between the same files via different inputs or between the Amarra 4 and the MConnect?

I understand that Roon or JRiver loaded on my MacMini will allow control of the Bridge II. Should I go this route to be able to play CDs ripped onto my external hard drive for the MacMini on the Bridge?

Mark.

Hi All,

We’ve communicated the issue to the team that works on our bridge code and I’m waiting for them to look into it. Hopefully we will have a resolution for this issue very soon.

Regards,

Matt

Hi Matt, and thanks very much for the post. Happy New Year to you and the entire PS Audio team!

Sonic Studio-Amarra folks confirmed that software/Amarra 4 Luxe can only unfold MQA to 96 and a full MQA DAC is required to unfold to 192 assuming the MQA file is 192 to begin with.

So-if you want full Tidal MQA you need the BridgeII AND there may be a bit of better in the ethernet/Bridge ii over USB.

I don’t know if I will try Roon given the annual charge and some comments that the sound is not as good. Soon fans try to convince me to try.

Mark.

I have Audirvana Plus v3.2.3 (latest version) on a MacBook Pro running macOS High Sierra v10.13.2. Audirvana Plus claims that v3.x.x decodes MQA up through the so-called first unfold. I played The Doors song “Soul Kitchen” from the TIDAL MQA version of the The Doors’ self-titled first album (50th Anniversary Deluxe Edition) via my MPB/Audirvana Plus tonight to both the Bridge II and the renderer in my Melco, which feeds my DS via USB. In each instance, Audirvana Plus reported the track as 24/192 MQA., and in each instance the DS display showed the track as 24/48. Here is a screen grab from my MBP:

Screen-Shot-2018-01-03-at-12.08.11-AM.png

This is the same track that appeared on the DS display as 24/192 when using the mconnectControl app back in July 2017 (see Post #22, above), but now shows as 16/192 when streamed to the Bridge II via mconnectControl (see post #15, above).

I hesitate to read too much into this, but it seems to me that if Audirvana Plus can serve the TIDAL MQA version of “Soul Kitchen” as a 24-bit track to the Bridge II, then mconnectControl ought to be able to do so, as well.

Thanks for all of this Boot! I’m sure your efforts are not en vein. Looking forward to some type of resolution to this “issue.”

I think Bootzilla is suffering with Audirvana as I am with Amarra 4 Luxe in that we both get the full 192 file as shown on the right side of the display BUT both of these software programs unfold to the indicated display on the left 24/48 in the Audirvana case and 96 in Amarra 4 Luxe-a partial unfolding. Both Audirvana and Amarra play MQA at one unfold and the DS/DSJr. show what is actually playing. I am guessing that the Bridge II is in effect a full MQA decoder when run by MConnect and the 24/192 shows in the MConnect player and on the DS jr. screen as simply 192-bits undisplayed on a DS Jr. If one wants full Tidal MQA, use MConnect. I am assuming that neither DS nor DS Jr. is by itself a full MQA decoder. Does this also happen with Roon? If this is not a good explanation, I hope someone will correct my summary.

Mark.

Jeff of Arabica said

I can confirm the same issue. When I play a 24/192k MQA track via Mconnect Control app, it displays 16/192k in Redcloud. When I first begin playback, it initially displays “24” bits but after a split second, it changes to “16” and remains there the rest of the time.

Not an issue for tracks below 192k. They are displaying correctly at 24 bits.

Also, I am getting the correct “MQA.” (with “.”) displaying at top when the 192k tracks incorrectly display “16” bits.

I observed the bits value jump backward and forward 16 to 24 to 16 during playback of Hotel California. I am listening to the Tidal Masters: New Arrivals playlist. Mostly it was 16. I’m not an expert, but the 24 did seem to happen on transitions from less to more complex.

Lots of 16 to 24 jumping on Ramones Here Today, Gone Tomorrow. Wouldn’t have though they would have complex and non-complex, perhaps its noisy material.

Also, there is the MQA text which appears in Green or blue. The colour doesn’t seem to be related to bits or sampling freq. In another forum someone seemed to think it was 2 different qualities of MQA. Perhaps MQA and “MQA Studio”. Lots of data. Be curious if someone gets to convert this data to information.

And just to add spice, one of the “Masters” tracks is being described as 44, 16 by both Roon & my Bridge. It’s Anna Ternheim, All the Way to Rio. Not sure if that is a regional copyright issue or some glitch by Tidal.

Blackicehurts,

Very interesting observation. To be honest, I have not observed the display during playback in such a way to notice what you have described. I will do so this evening to see if this is also occurring on my system. The only thing I notice when I play a 24/192 file is the DSD display shows “24 Bits” for a split second then changes to “16 Bits.” I will continue to focus on the display to observe if it flips back and forth from 16 to 24.

The unfortunate reality to all of this is there is no other streaming service offering MQA in order to determine if the problem is Tidal, and not PS Audio.

I am not an audio software person…so its safe for me to spout all sorts of opinions! Does the famous MQA origami fold/unfold happen once per track, or as needed throughout the track? Variable bit rate compression uses more space for the complex or noisy sections, maybe MQA is similar and some portions need more or less folding/compression?

MQA supports changing algos on the fly. MQA doesn’t support variable bit rates, so the number of bits actually used for audio does change on the fly (depending on the audio.)

Jeff of Arabica said

Thanks for all of this Boot! I’m sure your efforts are not en vein. Looking forward to some type of resolution to this “issue.”


Was that pun intended ?!?

The best amp is a straight wire, the best connection is straight to the vein.

Though maybe I’m being too flippant;

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23731593-300-can-listening-to-a-low-hum-destroy-alzheimers-brain-plaques/

Couldn’t read the whole article without a paid subscription. Too bad, I was interested, but not that much.

blackicehurts said The best amp is a straight wire, the best connection is straight to the vein.
Vein? I suspect you meant brain.

Here is an observation that might add to the 24-bit versus 16-bit MQA discussion:

Tonight I downloaded a free/legal MQA file from the 2L high-res test bench at http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html?

Specifically, from the third row, sixth column: “Mozart: Violin concerto in D major - Allegro” by Marianne Thorsen / TrondheimSolistene (98 MB).

I saved the file to the SSD on my MacBook Pro.

The name of the downloaded file is: “2L-038_MQA2016-352k-24b_01.mqa,” seemingly indicating that the file has the potential to unfold to 24-bit, 352k.

Using JRiver Media Center 20, I streamed the file to the renderer in my Melco, which feeds the DS via USB. The DS displayed 24-bit, 44.1k. This seems correct, as neither the Melco nor the DS’s USB input has an MQA decoder.

Next, I streamed the same file to the MQA-capable Bridge II (v3.4.5). The DS displayed 16-bit, 176.4k, and the “MQA.” indicator lit up.

The Bridge II’s MQA decoder tops out at 192k, so it was not surprising that 352k did not appear on the DS display. However, I do not understand why the file showed as 16-bit. The same file displayed as 24-bit when fed without unfolding to the DS’s USB input (@ 44.1k). Also, the name that 2L assigned to the MQA file (quoted above) contains the following: “352k-24b.”

What I deduce from this is that the 16-bit MQA issue has nothing to do with MQA, TIDAL or Redcloud. Rather, the issue seems to be related to the Bridge II.