Anyone using Paul's Maestro Music management system?

Network Audio
1902

Let me use another analogy.

A weather forecast does not only report the temperature; have you noticed that it often includes a value called “Feels Like” as well?

For example, if the actual temperature is 15°C, why can it feel very different under different conditions?

The reason is that our perception of temperature is influenced by many factors such as wind, humidity, sunlight, and air movement. A windy 15°C day may feel much colder, while a calm and sunny 15°C day may feel quite comfortable.

This is similar to audio playback. Two systems may measure the same, just as two days may both be 15°C, yet the listening experience can still feel different. Measurements describe one aspect of reality, while human perception reflects the overall experience.

So when people discuss sound quality, it is not necessarily a contradiction to say that the measured values are similar while the perceived result is different.

1903

Having a good listen to Maestro on local files. I installed Minimserver and used BubbleUPnP to control it on Android and yeah it’s good but Maestro has this “real” non-digital sound to it, really 3D and nice. It just sounds “right” Paul is definitely on to something.

I just realised that I can remotely control Maestro on my phone using BubbleUPnP on Android! I can change tracks and play/pause all good but if I select another album via BubbleUPnP I get a slightly more “digital” 2D version. Not Roon level but if I go back and select the same album with Maestro it goes all nice again :winking_face_with_tongue: I don’t think I’m imagining all this :slightly_smiling_face:
All this is with local files. I haven’t tried Qobuz yet.

I’m streaming via a Bridge II in a DirectStream DAC btw

Ok just tried Qobuz. Same improvement with Maestro :slightly_smiling_face:

1904

For a long time, Maestro had gapless play but it’s gone now. Can you bring it back pretty soon?

1905

With UPnP, it’s basically like saying 01.flac sounds better downloaded from site A than site B.

DLNA/UPnP is an incredibly basic protocol, there is no secret sauce. You can start playback from just a couple of Linux commands.

Get the URL of the renderer and a track from BubbleUPnP

Devices > Renderers

  • Click on vertical ellipsis next to your renderer of choice
  • Click Info
  • Note the URL next to “Desc. XML URL” e.g. http ://192.168.XX.XX:XXXXX/Device.xml (RendererURL)
  • Lets call the host address HostURL e.g. http ://192.168.XX.XX:XXXXX

Browse to a track in your library

  • Click the vertical ellipsis next to the track
  • Click Show Metadata
  • Copy the Stream #1 URL (trackURL)

Determine the renderers control URL
replace http://XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX:XXXXX/XXXXX.xml in the following command with RendererURL

curl -s "http://XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX:XXXXX/XXXXX.xml" | xmlstarlet sel -N u="urn:schemas-upnp-org:device-1-0" -t -v "//u:service[u:serviceType='urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:AVTransport:1']/u:controlURL"

A WiiM returns “/upnp/control/rendertransport1” (controlPath)

Start playback

In the following commands

  • replace “rendererTransport” with HostURL/controlPath e.g. http ://192.168.XX.XX:XXXXX/upnp/control/rendertransport1
  • replace “urlOfTrack” with trackURL

Queue the track

curl -s \
     -X POST rendererTransport \
     -H 'Content-Type: text/xml; charset="utf-8"' \
     -H 'SOAPAction: "urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:AVTransport:1#SetAVTransportURI"' \
     -d '<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<s:Envelope s:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/" xmlns:s="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/">
  <s:Body>
    <u:SetAVTransportURI xmlns:u="urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:AVTransport:1">
      <InstanceID>0</InstanceID>
      <CurrentURI>urlOfTrack</CurrentURI>
      <CurrentURIMetaData></CurrentURIMetaData>
    </u:SetAVTransportURI>
  </s:Body>
</s:Envelope>'

Start playback

curl -s \
     -X POST rendererTransport \
     -H 'Content-Type: text/xml; charset="utf-8"' \
     -H 'SOAPAction: "urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:AVTransport:1#Play"' \
     -d '<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<s:Envelope s:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/" xmlns:s="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/">
  <s:Body>
    <u:Play xmlns:u="urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:AVTransport:1">
      <InstanceID>0</InstanceID>
      <Speed>1</Speed>
    </u:Play>
  </s:Body>
</s:Envelope>'

At this point the renderer downloads the track from the given URL and starts playback.

The only difference between Maestro and MinimServer+BubbleUPnP is the device that issues the commands and the web-server that hosts the files. If those details impact the sound of the Bridge II then I’d be asking for my money back!

Paul has already stated there won’t be an audible difference, so for your own sanity I’d perform a blind test.

1906

A new filter is born. Tested, working nicely.

1907

Carlos, that’s great and good listening!

You are likely not imagining what you’re hearing — two control points can sound different feeding the same DirectStream over BridgeII, even on UPnP/DLNA. The protocol carries the commands, but it doesn’t dictate the audio: what actually reaches your DAC depends on what the server hands it. The renderer plays whatever URL it’s given, at whatever format, sample rate, and bit depth the serving side decides — and it’ll happily accept a resampled or re-wrapped stream without complaint, because from the Bridge’s point of view it’s just a valid stream.

Once resampled, even if it spits out the same sample rate and bit depth as reported by DirectStream, game over.

When Maestro plays, it serves the file from its own engine and decides exactly what to hand your DAC. When you drive playback from BubbleUPnP, the audio is coming from MinimServer’s server with MinimServer’s settings — and those two aren’t necessarily serving the same stream. The most common culprit is MinimServer’s transcoding: it ships with a stream.transcode option that’s active in a lot of setups, and if it’s resampling or converting on the way out, that alone can take the “3D” out of it (just ask any Roon user). So switching back to Maestro sounds right and 3D again because Maestro is handing the Bridge the untouched file.

So, Maestro isn’t better, it’s that Minimserver under certain playback conditions is likely worse.

The thing about Maestro is you can trust that it’ll always give you the best playback option without you doing or knowing anything.

Two things you can check to confirm it rather than trust your ears alone:

  1. In MinimServer, look at the stream.transcode setting — if it’s doing anything to FLAC, that’s very likely your 2D-vs-3D right there. Set it to pass native and see if the BubbleUPnP path catches up.
  2. Compare what the DirectStream actually reports receiving on each path — the sample rate and bit depth shown on the DAC or Bridge. If they differ between Maestro and BubbleUPnP, you’ve found it, and it’s measurable, not subjective.

Either way, this is exactly the layer that matters and exactly where players differ — not the play/pause commands, which are identical, but what gets served and how. Glad it’s landing well on the DirectStream; that’s a lovely front end for it.

Have fun and keep reporting your findings. And, oh, btw, don’t be put off by technical folks disproving what you’re hearing. Trust your ears first.

1908

Thanks, Mitchell and you’re correct. As I tried to point out, trust your ears.
There are plenty of examples of the measurement-first folks jumping up and down about why this or that cannot actually sound better only to be proven wrong because there was a step or detail none of us even knew to look for.

And likely plenty of examples of the opposite being true.

I remember the bits are bits debate of years past and how, when Bob and I released the original Digital Lens that took those “identical bits” and made them sound so much better that we laid to rest that argument. For about 5 minutes. :blush:

I always think about food analogies. It is a fact that we judge food first with our eyes and second with our tongues. Ugly food identical in nature does not taste as good as lovely prepared food. But there’s an actual reason for that the measurement folk have discovered and now both camps are happy.

At the end of the day, trust your ears.

1909

We are all so impressed with your efforts to tell us we are not hearing what we are hearing. ASR might be a good outlet for your lengthy posts.

1910

Control points can’t sound different, but the URL that has been handed to them by the server may not point to the source file (if the user has chosen to apply dsp in the server).

As you probably know, MinimServer doesn’t ship with this configuration and I’d be very surprised if a user accidentally enabled it given the required syntax e.g. flac:-/wav24.

You can double-check the served file by downloading it via its URL in BubbleUPnP - or by using the GetMediaInfo UPnP command while a track plays - and comparing it to the original.

curl -s \
     -X POST http://192.168.XXX.XXX:XXXXX/upnp/control/rendertransport1 \
     -H 'Content-Type: text/xml; charset="utf-8"' \
     -H 'SOAPAction: "urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:AVTransport:1#GetMediaInfo"' \
     -d '<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<s:Envelope s:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/" xmlns:s="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/">
  <s:Body>
    <u:GetMediaInfo xmlns:u="urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:AVTransport:1">
      <InstanceID>0</InstanceID>
    </u:GetMediaInfo>
  </s:Body>
</s:Envelope>'

Yes, just as you can with MinimServer and BubbleUPnP in their default settings.

Please know that my intention is not to disrespect the product, merely educate about UPnP, but it seems people want to hear differences where there aren’t so I’ll stop now.

Maybe I’ll start selling TV remotes that enhance the picture quality :wink:

1911

I take it you’re choosing to ignore Paul’s posts? He’s agreeing that as long as the source file is served (no processing applied) then there won’t be a difference.

There will no doubt be many other reasons to use Maestro, all I am saying is that sound quality isn’t one of them if comparing Maestro to MinimServer (or any server that doesn’t apply dsp and doesn’t throttle delivery).

1912

“Trust your ears” is often less a scientific principle than marketing with a scientific accent, especially when the measurements refuse to cooperate…

1913

This

1914

I have not used Maestro for a few days, but the latest v.0246 finally solved the scanning local files issue for me. Scrolling speed on both Qobuz and files are excellent. There are a few album covers are missing, but overall this is the best one for Window yet.

I am always a listen-by-ear guy, and what sounds good to me always matters the most. I cannot explain why some cables or even fuses sounded better in my system, but many made significant improvement that measurement could not provide. I do not know how to measure “good sound”.

I have mentioned quite a few times that Roon and Maestro sounded similar to me from playing MU2 and PMG, but they sound superior to Qobuz Connect. Tidal Connect in Roon sounded the worst in my system. I am very familiar with my system, and if I don’t trust my ears then I will not be an audiophile.

1915

No, they hear differences and are pleased.

As with all efforts to understand, first comes observation, then an effort to determine why.

As one who stated early on Roon does not sound good I am pleased there are continuing efforts to improve the sound of software

1916

I’m a great believer that there is no better or worse sound in HiFi it’s just that it’s different, and it depends if you like the difference or not.

1917

The same bits received by the same streamer, served from the same machine over the same network, where the only difference is the web server. None of this in the analogue domain. What do you/they know that Paul and I don’t?

If my intention was to criticise I would have mentioned the local indexing, which is probably the worst I’ve ever encountered, but I didn’t, instead I provided feedback via email.

I’m happy that you’ve found a solution that you believe sounds better to you.

Again, just to reiterate, this is purely local media served by Maestro vs MinimServer (though likely other servers too which don’t process the audio).

1918

The Earth used to be flat and now it’s round . . .

Just saying.

1919

True, there are often differences in sources and gear, and it may come down to preference. However, in every comparison, you are judging it against a reference. If the reference is something that is undeniably familiar and unmistakable, you have a solid point from which to judge. That could be a favored component or the system itself. But, for myself, l hold dear voices or instruments that I am intimately familiar with. So, it isn’t so much a matter of preference but what sounds like the real thing to me.
A few guys from the Chicago Symphony used to hang out at the HiFi store I worked at. The gear they sought was simply to reproduce the instruments and concert experience as faithfully as possible. No component analytics, just music, the ultimate reference.

1920

You mentioned you sent me an email about the local indexing? Not sure I got that or maybe I am just behind in my emails—no, absolutely I am behind in my emails but would like to see what you have to offer. You’re clearly a programmer and I would value very much your input.

1921

I have not used Maestro.

For me, I am howeever able to accept that it may sound better than competing offerings. In this hobby, and elsewhere, there are many things which seem impossible–and yet we later learn they are not only possible but additionally can be explained. I thus do not write-off subjective anecdotal reports merely because I cannot explain them.

This did not last long. :slight_smile: