Belden ICONOCLAST Interconnects and Speaker Cabling

Cables
2095

Vmax,

Yes, I like the more precise sound of Windom. The change was an immediate “like”. It shares a family path from Snow Mass for sure, and that’s good. I use the SPTPC speaker with UP OCC XLR and RCA through my system.

As good as the CLX are, they don’t go way high or way low compared to those speakers that excel there, but where they do reach Windom is much better. Not that they are shy on treble but I’ve heard those Beryllium tweeters really do well way up high.

Of course, with stereo BF212 subs the CLX bass is great by “support”!

Windom midrange is more “right” more often and that’s about how it averages up over several types of source material and the expected variations. This is a game of averages since the source material is all different, and you can definitely make a stereo play one song really well…oops.

ICONOCLAST are pretty neutral cables, so the firmware is more what you like than anything to do with the cables. The speaker and IC response has been designed to be as neutral as possible with low phase (low inductance) and swept bandwidth (Rs).

The rest is the copper dra science and of course, the filter responses.

Best,
Galen Gareis

2096

Yes, yes you did, well Galen did - several

I’m enjoying the TPC speaker and BAV balanced in my modest system for over a year now - stick a fork in speaker and interconnect cables, they’re done.

Windom is better in ways I didn’t know my system needed but am oh so thankful and grateful for now knowing

1 Like
2097

You did good sir, very good! For the industry, for the hobby and for our audiophile family. Thank you.

1 Like
2098

I second that, wglenn. Running same cables DSDSr->BHK Pre->BHK 300s. I likey Windom!

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2099

Ditto me too.

2100

Can I take the fourth? Or should I say I second that emotion. I am always excited and
cautious with Teds’s upgrades because they have been on a component change level
since Snowmass and you never now how the other stuff will react. Well, my UPOCC’s
with SPTPC’s seems to play right along with the DMP, DAC, 300’s and Maggies. All is
quiet(er) and more musical. The downside is the variation in recordings are even more
revealed. There is more there, there, but most recordings fall short of the system’s
capabilities.

2101

Bob,

We all tend to get settled and spoiled and forget what we had before. I set one of my old systems up at my girlfriends house with my previous ICs and cables. I was really enjoying it like an old friend. I compared a Qobuz playlist there and then on my system with full loom iconoclast. Instant awareness once back home on just how fleshed out three dimensions and the missing bass and realism I had taken as second nature.

1 Like
2102

I agree on the neutrality of Iconoclast. Glad your enjoying Windom. I have yet to find something that sounds poor. It seems the voice or instrument in the room is second nature.

I do say. When are you going to bless us with some well engineered power cables?

2103

Motion seconded! (again)

bring on the Iconoclast power cables!

2104

There must be something floating around in the wind…:thinking:

2105

Windom upped the music another level over Snowmass -
UPOCC 4x4 Gen2 XLRs and SPTPC speaker cables
DMP > DS Sr. > BHK Pre > BHK 250 > Polk SDA-SRS 2s

2106

Let’s hope that is why Galen is so busy.

2107

I have all iconoclast interconnect and speaker cabling, and I’d be very curious about power cables. Especially about the engineering that Galen would apply and explain in his outstanding whitepapers. Personally I expect power cables to have less of an impact in my system then cables that carry audio signals, but who knows. Today I have a PS Audio and also Pangea power cables, which by the way have an awesome price/performance balance and come in many lengths and versions. Looking forward.

2108

I was of the camp that thought power cables would have minimal sonic effect
but I am no longer there. I would suggest you borrow some and take a good listen.
You might find they have sonic signatures like interconnects and the good ones
reveal more of the music. Try them with your DAC first, as a good cord seems
to make the greatest difference in digital units. I don’t know the science,
possibly the effects of noise reduction. A step up for a small investment might
be the Shunyata Venom with noise reduction.

2 Likes
2109

Be careful about what noise harvesting means. The current ”art” is to show pre power supply data that isn’t the “final answer” at the Vcc DC supply rails where modulation will alter the AC signal as it changes the transistors gain linearity.

Noise prior to a P10 or any good power supply is not meaningful unless it effects the DC supply voltage stability somehow. Curiously, no one shows that. Current delivery is ONLY effected by the measured inductance, which IGNORES the dielectrics and even the frequency. To properly compare cords the AWG and the inductance have to be specified or you really know nothing at all. Curiously, no L and C data is supplied with those $$$ power cords.

What you need to be concerned with, is the Vcc ripple specification in your power supply. An amplifier at WAY full tilt may benefit from a 12 AWG cord (what is in your wall for a 20A circuit) if your wall voltage sags. Most sources outside of HUGE power amps won’t come even remotely close to sagging your wall voltage.

If there is a difference in cords, it is the INDUCTANCE value that determines how quickly the max current can be drawn. Capacitance isn’t as critical as we are at full wall voltage all the time. This max value aspect of current delivery MAY be true for amplifiers that MIGHT sag the internal power supply. No one bothers to determine if that’s the case, and it most likely isn’t. Better is better but if the power supply is made right, it won’t sag with the PVC cord in the box. A PVC cord can have low inductance!

I can spray my yard for ants to keep the little barbarians away from the gates. But if the little barbarians were kept out prior to the “improvements” what really changed? We need to test farther down stream and decide if the technology, even if it kills all the ants, was appropriate in the first place.

I see scant little data on power cords downstream effects on the Vcc, and this is it’s job…to get steady and noise free Vcc at any current level. Seldom is this going to be changed with power cord RF noise. My P10 shows the exact same ingress “noise” difference with an 18 AWG cord and a over one-thousand dollar 10 AWG power cord. The outgoing trace is clean as can be. The biggest thing a P10 or like device does, is hold the wall voltage steady through the day where it sags. If significant, this can indeed alter amplifier characteristics, especially tube bias.

Low inductance cords are nice to make sure the current delivery is always as good as your ROMEX will allow, it has inductance, too, but at what cost? Are the barbarians at the gate or past it?

As a customer, you can “feel” any way you want to. I do all the time! But as a manufacturer, I have to go with the data. Good data on the power cord itself still leaves the question of what gets past the gates.

Galen Gareis

2 Likes
2110

Galen,

Thanks for your insights on some of the issues involved in trying to give audio gear a signal that allows the gear to sound as good as possible.

Do you have any thoughts on why some of us have heard more significant positive effects (e.g., reduced background noise/hash, tighter bass) when upgrading power cords to DAC/Preamp components than to power amps? For that comparison, it would seem more related to a noise issue than a maximum current draw issue, but I certainly don’t understand all the possible factors that might be involved. I’d love to try to understand more about these issues.

2111

Thank you Galen. The mfr of my amplifier (Pass) agrees with you about power cables.
That said, going from the cable that he supplied and favors, to a 6 gauge, “high end” cable makes at least as big an improvement in sq as your spkr cables do, which are in my system.
Your counter argument to this notwithstanding, my ears and all the little wax filled ears who’ve listened agree that the improvement is very easy to hear—and enjoy.

2112

We are easy to trick into “feeling” the effects of reduced background noise, hash and such. But what data suggests we SHOULD possibly experience these things?

Physics has to still be responsible for what we hear, measured or not. If we can manage the aspects of what we hear, and keep them intact chasing new ideas, we go forward. When we ignore basic R, L and C because we use “gold” wire or other exotic materials we go backwards. The basics that we know need to be kept where they are as we explore new measures. A new variable doesn’t exempt all the proven older ones.

As far as a power cord on a device making a difference I most often wonder how bad the power supply is. If the Vcc ripple isn’t impacted by the load the power cord is working to keep the filter capacitors charged in linear power supplies.

How far downstream is a power cords differences measured? The differences have to show up where it effects the circuits linearity compared to another cord. This is true for all amplifiers big or small.

I design based on evidence that can be backed-up with knowns. This makes cable most cost effective and, you know what is changed that COULD be evidence for a change. I have no good evidence that the barbarians of noise make it past the gate. I do have evidence that the ablity to close and open the current door quickly, does impact severe current draw voltage drop. This is controlled with lower inductance and suitable AWG size based on the power supply current rating.

How much should we pay for lower inductance? What downstream data do we have on “noise” getting past the power cord itself to be worth paying for?

I use a P10 and my situation may be, and is, different than many. I don’t have significant power issues but I do know what should improve the situation or those that do. Proper Inductance design cables and AWG based on the power supply rating. The voltage drop across the cord should be kept at less than 0.5% (voltage drop equals cord resistance time the current draw). The steady state current maximum ramp time should be mitigated with low inductance.

GALEN GAREIS

2113

Hey Galen—Do you use TPC on your IC’s and spkr cable? If no, why not?

2114

Ron,

Tell me what you KNOW about those cords. We make big judgements with no basic data in this hobby. I had to MEASURE my high-end cord myself to get useful data.

Can you get the SQ you want with a far less expensive cord if it is designed well, and omits the factors that can’t be justified downstream?

This is what ICONOCLAST and BAV does. We use the meaningful data to best effect for our customers, and explain WHY it MAY be a benefit to specific systems at the actual IC or speaker load. Power cables are no different.

Fancy graphs of power draw with respect to time are MEANINGLESS unless it shows a CHANGE in the Vcc. All good power supplies can sustain output Vcc with a pre determined rectified voltage sag. As long as that time is longer than the time it takes the inrush current to charge the caps, it is immaterial to the power supplies operation.

we can talk about “noise” but that’s it. I have seen scant little evidence it gets past a good power linear supply. Even modern “noisey” digital supplies are well isolated from the switching transistor noise. The EXTERNAL stuff is more subject to the noise than the device itself, hence FCC class A and B noise emissions requirements.