Belden ICONOCLAST Interconnects and Speaker Cabling

Me too. Oh man, hope it’s not all the cable types that improved, I have a full loom of iconoclast, then I have to upgrade it all :grin:

I have a full loom of Transparent G5 Ultra and Reference. I think in the beginning of these trials I’ll be the most interested in XLR from DAC to Pre and from Pre to Amps. Speaker cables may come later.

Hello everyone, I just wanted jump in as Bob might be unavailable for a bit. If you need any assistance with purchases or auditions please feel free to contact me directly. The number for the shop in Seattle is 206-284-2924.

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Do we ask for “iconoclastjeff”?

BTW - Welcome to the Forum!

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Certainly, could be fun.
Count me in as well.

  • Higher inductance than it should have and is random to the UL min wall and wire spacing. It is NOT designed for audio, it is designed for 60 Hz power safety.
  • Capacitance has no design metric either, it simply falls where it does to meet UL minimum wall requirements. It is not used as a managed attribute to improve the analog performance.
  • Higher DCR than necessary. We can at least use 14 AWG or heavier zip cord and fix one attribute. We want the signal across the load, not the cable. A good cable should NOT modulate the load signal with voltage being dropped across your speaker cable.
  • PVC insulation degrades, light molecular weight plastisizer migrates out allowing it to yellow and crack.
  • Poor impedance sweep than necessary and far higher than is possible.
  • Virtually zero attempt to manage the Vp differential (group delay) with frequency.
  • Current efficiency in the wire is poor as it also ignores tertiary attributes that follow along with Vp linearity improvements using multiple small wires.
  • Rs swept attenuation is much higher than idealized analog designs.

Below is what standard design zip cord (or a simple twisted pair) wire does to frequency group delay at audio. Ignore the 9269 that is a 93-ohm RF coaxial cable. Do we care if the group velocity is that bad? All frequencies don’t arrive at the end of the cable at the same time. In analog we can’t fix this, ever, but we can minimize it. Digital can reshape the data to perfection no problem as it is distorted by group delay and attenuation. All digital is reshaped by the NIC card as it arrives.

The IMPEDANCE graph is a typical zip / twisted pair impedance. It is 600 OHMS or higher at 1 KHz and over 1200-ohms at 100 Hz. This impedance rise is caused by the decrease in Vp across frequency down toward DC. As Vp goes DOWN the impedance goes UP. Zip cord doesn’t even care about that as it is a 60 Hz AC power signal design.

If you want to get closer to the speaker load impedance (2-16 ohms range) you are a long way off with zip cord. Better analog designs are less than 300 ohms at 100 Hz.

There is a lot we can do to get better measuring speaker cable through the audio range that is as factual as why zip cord works the way it does. All the exact same measurement and design formula techniques are used. Better is better and through the analog frequency range that is much harder to do than at RF for digital. We have a constantly changing Vp (dielectric constant) from 1 MHz on down to DC where it is zero by definition. We can improve that with managed wire size, DCR, L and C.

It is a fair question to ask. We show you how ICONOCLAST is designed and how it works. You should ask that very question.

Best,
Galen

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You will use the ANALOG optimized designs in your evaluations.

These are made with 30 AWG signal wire designs for good reasons. The signal linearity through audio is much improved with the more complex signal wire design. We improve the Vp differential 30% at 20 KHz and a more important 20% at 10 KHz (we all hear 10 KHz).

How this happens is the wire loop DCR is far higher with 30 AWG (103.2 ohms verses 32.37 ohms) and this allows (with capacitance paid attention to) a far better calculated and measured analog design. The impedance is lower than most expect because the “R” is the parallel resistance in the equation and also uses a higher capacitance across all the wires. The Vp equation uses the individually insulated wire DCR loop path resistance. The 1x4 and 4x4 have LOWER loop DCR than the 25 AWG even with the 30 AWG tiny wires. All the data is verified open-short impedance and calculated Vp differential from the open-short impedance.

Are “high” input impedances on ALL of our IC cables (*they all will have high impedance in the low frequencies) a problem? No, since we terminate into “infinity” or 47 KOhms. The signal sees the load and not the cable per say when we have an “open” at the signal end. Infinity is way higher than 2,000 ohms. Still, the series II IC cables (RCA and XLR both) see a lower input impedance than the 25 AWG design while it improves Vp differential across frequency, so several improvements were made at the same time;
-) Vp differential.
-) DCR loop values.
-) current efficiency.
-) input impedance was lowered.
-) inductance was dropped to further help PHASE and Vp differential.

I feel we hear the time-based distortions over any other attribute and try to minimize those that add group delay issues to our analog products. First order filter roll-off from capacitance isn’t an issue until you reach MHz frequencies. The Inductance changes Vp differential at low frequencies. We have omega (2pif) and “R” is part of the inductance formula thus inductive reactance is with us at low frequencies.

The "L in the equation below is for when a resistor and inductor in series are at resonance only. This is one way to figure out what an unknown inductor value is.

Best,
Galen




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Count me in.

Galen, I’d love to tune into your ZOOM session from Singapore (at any time, on any day)! :facepunch:t2:

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Just Jeff is fine!

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The new design cable product is made for TPC production quality and is in shipping now. We don’t have miles of cable as the design is SLOW and $$$ to make. Plus, being the first run I was at all the operations testing as we go and getting in everyone’s way. But, this insures quality and we have to meet the specs or it doesn’t work. Doing stuff to real requirements rats you out quickly.

The patent is covering the application but a CIP or other changes may be made. We let the lawyers work that out.

As soon as the CIP or provisional is filed we should be able to make assemblies (at Blue Jeans) and explain (probably just me) all this. This will be fun for everyone. Cable is far more interesting than you might think and even with real stuff and not mystery and intrigue. We don’t have any of that, it all fits together per standard practice. We just have a real unique way to balance all the “known” variables to work the best for us at audio.

Best,
Galen

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“Iconojeff”? “Jeffoclast”? :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

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Hi John,

Yes, our gang needs a get together to see who we all are. We missed AXPONA, that was too bad. Love to meet everyone and say hi.

I just want you all to enjoy what I do at a nice price and feel you are buying true technology because the papers all show that you are. The product meets the papers validation steps. If better stuff can help, why not make it really better to a standard of some sort. Cable should be held to strict design standards same as all our other equipment. ICONOCLAST is just trying to do it per the physics and nothing else.

In the end the cable is how physics is forced to work, so even if you guess on a design the physics are still there. Cable ignores the wishes of the designer. Like I said earlier, when we UNDERSTAND how the design should work (do a lot of homework) and then apply the “answers” to actual design measurements is when the product gets made for real. Answers do not make a product…they are just the END of the road you chose. It is up to the engineer to turn “answers” into reality. No map exists between the math/physics and the product. This form of validation a lot more fun than guessing. We can all go through the paper / presentation and have some fum with that comparing it to the product. HOW did the product generate the theoretical numbers stand math suggests we need to make the desired changes?

The joke is that real engineers can’t do well in sales or marketing because we can’t lie! All this work is to chase out the “lies” we make to ourselves when we design stuff and fix them one by one until we have a true understanding of the physics. The papers are for me first. When you are forced to write it all down does it REALLY work to proper standard?

The last part is we have an army of ONE (me) right now that is working from a pure math/science driven methodology on cable. Or, is willing to present it all to you, the buyer. ALL cable and everything we buy should be this kind of application (consider Nelson Pass’es work here for us all!). When we understand stuff, we can repeat the production over and over. Our PC’s, microwaves you name it get better and better and we know why.

Best,
Galen

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Hi - Are you saying that the new design, patent pending, is currently available?

If so, is this the Speaker cable or other?

I’m saying we do have SOME production quality TPC product we can work with after all the legal is completed. Be patient and you’ll know plenty soon enough WHAT the product is, and I hope HOW the product works, too.

We can’t sell you anything until all the design trial are into the production program and a cost is calculated. Believe it or not, I had to make SEVERAL iterations in the design to hit the right numbers. Yep, I screwed up several times! To that end, the BOM, Bill Of Materials, is changed and so is the the costing screen. SAH, Standard Allotted Hours, is far higher than I planned. But, Mother Nature could care less about how I feel…or the required market price. Put simply, the required design costs more than initial estimates. But there is a good side…we CAN make the desired product! I won’t sell a product unless it is suitably better enough to offer any advantages in measure and calculation. Thus, I had to design to that end, not the market price. I think we all want a true change that is significant enough to be truly better.

What the product can potentially do for you will be explained and you should wait for that information to make a decision. We sell the “numbers” yes. How those numbers may benefit you is ALWAYS the reason to use a product.

Every system will see the IC cable and cable+speaker from the amplifier differently. My job is to minimize what the cables do in those circuits as much as possible. I don’t design to a “sound” as much as no sound from the cable. You can make a cable have a sound if the designer wanted to. To me only the source material should provide the sound.

Best,
Galen

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In the meantime I have an experience to share about iconoclast for digital interconnects (streamer to room processor to dac). As recommended I used the Iconoclast gen1 for that, as gen2 is analog only. But then Galen mentioned the Belden 1694A cable as a digital-specific design. I switched to that, and lo and behold, it made an improvement for me. I hear clearer highs (less rolled-off) and a little more precision in the soundstage. Belden 1694A is very affordable at bluejeanscable. Just wanted to share. Your mileage may vary off course.

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Can we get wrist straps or do we have to stand in line?

I would like to go on record to say I would like to buy the very first pair available of the magical new cables. 1 meter, XLR. Pretty please!

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Fastpass?

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Bribery?

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