The Rel G2 subs are listed for sale on the US Audio Mart site.
Same way to connect 2 RELs T7 here to the M1200s. No spades, just bare wires. Not yet Iconoclast/BAV model but curious to try this sub cable after having experienced their XLR green ICs, that sound incredibly fantastic.
1 Like
@rower30 I have a new (to me) DAC coming, to shortly pair with a new streamer. (MU1, thanks very much to Al’s comments!)
I will be using the AES interface between the two units.
I know your 4x1 interconnect can be used for the AES connection, but I don’t know if the actual wire used has an impact on the sound. Can you tell me if you would expect OCC to sound different than TPC in this application?
1 Like
Digital not so much on the copper changing things as we are hearing the FILTERS, not the cable anymore. Well, this assumes we aren’t swamped with BER errors, and we aren’t. I know we have argument over digital, but I’ve never seen digital be an issue over the FILTER quality at each end and, of course, the source encoding.
I use an AES/EBU XLR ICONOCLAST TPC copper cable from by PS Audio Memory Player to the DAC.
For digital AES/EBU the PIN 1 is signal Right and PIN 2 is signal Left with PIN 1 as ground reference. You don’t need the expensive, and actually WORSE for high frequency digital, 4x4 analog optimized XLR design.
Since we have virtually no errors on AES/EBU digital links, we can even use the 2468 BAV 4x1 XLR design very well too.
Digital likes the better geometry of the solid single 25 AWG wire for a more uniform impedance that is important at higher frequencie’s true transmission-line properties, but not for analog. This still is only important if the ACR, Attenuation to Crosstalk Ratio, is so poor we have errors before we get the signal to the end point. We can improve the signal magnitude or remove the noise or both. Each cost money to do.
Even better for an answer…try them and see. It is free. There is nothing that will alter the Shannon’s law BW of the digital cable based on copper for the lengths we use.
Best,
Galen
1 Like
@rower30 Thank you Galen!
I think I’ll order the 2468 cable to break everything in, then once that’s done I’ll reach out to Bob to coordinate the 4x1 Iconoclast cable to test against the 2468.
I appreciate your help, your designs and all your comments here on the forum.
Mike
1 Like
My understanding is that AES/EBU signal on an XLR connector is a balanced digital signal. Pin 2 is high, pin 3 is low. Each contain both the left and right channels.
What do you think?
You are correct! The L and R channels are multiplexed together between PIN 2 and 3 as digital subframes. I stand corrected for a not too good or clear answer. PIN 2 and 3 are “balanced” with digital encoded data that CONTAINS L+R channels per the below.
EDIT - another nice thing on balanced XLR, too, is that the GROUND is a SHIELD ground only. No signal is on PIN3. This is true for AES/EBU (the European spec uses transformers) or analog XLR.
Best,
Galen
Two subframes (A and B, normally used for left and right audio channels) make a frame. Frames contain 64 bit periods and are produced once per audio sample period. At the highest level, each 192 consecutive frames are grouped into an audio block. While samples repeat each frame time, metadata is only transmitted once per audio block. At 48 kHz sample rate, there are 250 audio blocks per second, and 3,072,000 time slots per second supported by a 6.144 MHz biphase clock.[6]
1 Like
New review of Iconoclast Speaker Cable and also my REL sub cable:
8 Likes
Just ordered
BAV 1310A REL-compatible sub cables (pair, two-wire), 10 1/2 foot for $237.75 (30 day warranty)
18 gauge copper 3 wire, with a better quality Neutrik connector than REL’s and spade ends. I requested the two positive wires be connected to one spade, to be used for REL s/812s.
I spoke with Jeff at 206-284-2924 who is a knowledgeable and wonderful person. Jeff was extremely helpful by answering my many questions.
I found out that this price is a sale special and is in effect as an introductory offer for an unspecified time period. But with a 30 day warranty for a custom length, when compared to RELs blue at $900, I wanted to get them.
5 Likes
Good Morning. I’m glad that Jeff posted the link to Doug’s review. The current pricing is in effect as an introductory offer but will remain through August. When the weather begins to change and cooler temps arrive I expect the prices to increase about 15%. (Sept 1) I wish the “gas stations” would hold to more reasonable increases 
In hand these REL cables are most impressive and they do provide immediate and obvious sound quality improvements. Thank you for your order. Enjoy!
4 Likes
Even more. The 1310A used “star quad” wire method much improves the BAV series SPEAKER cable electrical to a new level at a great price. 1310A isn’t just a sub cable.
1310A uses some of the ICONOCLAST tech to get closer to ICONOCLAST at a better BAV price. That’s the point of high-end tech, figure out the trickle down.
The BAV power cable and now 1310A verified with the proper testing to meet our needs are available and with all the supporting tests. Stay tuned for the report paper. This will cover 1313A, 1310A series I and II ICONOCLAST speaker cable.
It also covers a much ignored way to wire your speakers to cut R and C in HALF with a far flatter impedance sweep too. All measured and tested for you.
The paper, yes with real data, is in the works to show how all the speaker cable products line-up based on the tech and yes they do have a pecking order. Cable is pretty fun with the data. There is a lot to consider outside of cable is all the same. Better, we can close the measured GAP in electrical superior cable and STILL not spend a ton. ICONOCLAST has brought this process to you in 1310A and BAV power cords.
Best,
Galen
4 Likes
Ok I feel I should know the answer to this question but I will own up i don’ t… About to get another Rel S812 to go to Stereo sub one is 14 ft and one is 8ft - it’s not about the cost its more about parking cables behind a rack - how important is having the same length ?
Totally inconsequential. You can save the money, or you can get whatever length you’d like to offer future flexibility.
You absolutely won’t be able to hear an effect from different lengths.
The signal speed is less than the speed of light in a vacuum, but is still incredibly fast.
2 Likes
You may have a problem selling cable with different lengths. I recommend the same length for resale. But there is another measured reason. Measured BECAUSE it is so hard to calculate the impedance frequency points exact outcome so we measure, and that gets all the tertiary variables.
Analog cable has a DIFFERENT impedance curve with LENGTH and different designs. Analog is NOT a true transmission line and using open-short testing we can see the variations with length. This is seen in the low end more than higher frequencies as the cable is more and more “like” a transmission line (but still not really) as you go higher. Where the impedance frequency SHOULD match and the most power transfer, you get the most problems with length. Analog cable is too short to “self terminate” like an RF cable. Even RF recommends minimum lengths so you have a solid 10 wavelengths in the cable so it is acting like it should for RL, Return Loss, mitigation.
Below is a set of ten footers tested. The DESIGN show pretty substantial impedance shift below about 100 Hz or so. This is real stuff we can measure. Cable isn’t ever going to be 8-ohm nominal like a speaker (some speakers).
When you look at an analog cable, always compare the same length. The impedance pecking order, what is high verses lower, will be the same order but the impedance curves will shift up or down some, mostly in the low end, based on length.
We also are using a power transfer function in the worst case frequency range for audio, lower end. We’d like to see a lower impedance if we can. This is all measurable, and I’ll have a white paper on what we can do with the testing across four popular cables. I used 10 foot as that’s a valid in-use length.
It isn’t all about ONE variable, but how they all work together. I’d keep the cables the same in order to load the amplifier with the same reactance where the most current is being transferred to a load. This will also make the amplifier more the “same” as amplifiers are NOT completely linear into dynamic loads. Some worse than others. This is why amplifier designs sound different.
If you don’t care about the true impedance variation between cables, or resale, you’re good. Analog being so additive, I like to tune everywhere I can.
Best,
Galen
5 Likes
thanks @rower30 - you really do have a skill to be able to explain the theory and measurement behind it too a level that is understandable and it just make sense. @iconoclastjeff incoming order - 2 x same length coming to Australia - looking forward to having a play.
4 Likes
wow that was quick @iconoclastjeff Cables arrived quicker than the New second sub from the distributor a few hours up the road
9 Likes
Excellent! Hope you enjoy your new cables!
2 Likes
I recently purchased a set of OFE speaker cables for my GoldenEar Triton speakers and TPC interconnects between preamp and amp (both PrimaLuna), replacing Acoustic Zen and Audience Au24. Most impressive upgrade I’ve done in a while. It’ll sound redundant given all the previous comments, but immediately noticeable were improvements in coherence, clarity without harshness, rock-solid placement of instruments across the soundstage, and transient attack, the latter much appreciated with tube components. Over the years I’ve bounced back-and-forth between tube and SS amplification in various combinations, loving the three-dimensionality tubes bring, but also loving the better transient performance of SS, but never finding the perfect balance. With the Iconoclast I think I’m finally where I need to be. Next step is saving up for cables for sources.
8 Likes
Iconoclast source cables are pretty awesome too. Especially for the money.
Enjoy!
3 Likes
Well, listening awhile to the GENELEC G Three speakers on the PC makes me want to balance the checkbook more often playing music. I needed a speaker I can hook RCA or XLR directly into and remove as much as I can from the chain. The GENELEC G Three came into my radar on the specs. Are they any good? I can use the T+A P3100 HV pre amp directly into the RCA or XLR analog inputs for evaluations. In the remaing time, I can carry the little aluminum bricks to the PC room and use them there. OMG was I in for a shock!
As soon as the windows theme played it was, “who changed my PC sounds?”. They are THAT different than what I thought was OK. But this raises a point, your perception of what is good only seems to be referenced from the bottom, and has no clue about the top of possible improvements. There is a hole there waiting to be heard. You would think having the CWT 1000-40 would tell you that but you catagorize the performance away as unobtainable, on a PC for crips sake, so that’s not ever the top. Well, with the exception of bass below 50 Hz the GENELEC G Three had a word with me on that thought. Bass where they do play? Tons of detail and PUNCH make up for it. Again though, your anchor is set and they mask what you are missing so well…but the lesson is learned, don’t dismiss anything until you hear it.
Strangely, I have bought about every component when I heard it, and dismissed the possibility of being better than what I had to any meaningful degree. Audio is so weird that way. What is in the recordings is far and away from what I was hearing before. This is also why ICONOCLAST cable exists, it wasn’t supposed to bring any meaningful changes, but they do. Again, your anchor bias is broken away and you drift off to another reference.
Ya, when the G Three’s played the first time I almost feel STUPID for what my anchor was, and how much it left on the table, and not into the air for your ears. These are seriously good speaker. When I downsize these and a sub will work splendidly. No amps, one powered sub and away you go. They get WAY loud easily with no stress. 100 watts 50 per driver and electronic cross-over will do that.
The SPEED of the G Three is also amazing. Coming from electrostatic there is an “air” around sounds that is played (playing nothing well?) and only some speakers can do it. I really miss that sound and why I’ve kept stats up top but, the G Three show there is a way with a dome tweeter. Some say small speakers are hard to beat for imaging and texture of a performance and swear by smaller monitors for that reason, I get it that now. But I had to hear it to even imagine (you can’t) it.
As far a class-D amps go? Ugh, right? That was my early experience with them. Well, what ever they do well is far and away eclipsing what ever they do poorly in the G Three’s. The overall package is vaulting well towards the top. I never realized how much I was doing the limba verses pole vaulting.
If you want to try really good mini monitors, I can’t say enough good about them, and at $1,600.00 a pair they are well affordable too. Some will dismiss the performance based on the price. Don’t do that price anchor reference either! Try them and see. They sell a ton in Asia and Europe so volume is a good thing for the MSRP price.
As far as noises go in general? I never really heard the plasma guns gooey, icky and sticky SPLATS until last night! I thought I was standing in the mess. So much fun everywhere the GENELEC G Three’s take you. Highly recommended.
Oh, Blue Jeans made the 3.5mm to stereo RCA cable. Any length you need for the PC application. On the stereo I use the ICONOCLAST RCA and XLR straight in off the preamplifier.
Best,
Galen
7 Likes