Thank you WGlenn, you hit the nail on the head. Paul and his team love Iconoclast cables and more than respect Galen’s work. There are many parts to this puzzle but your understanding of certain behavior is seemingly accurate. Hopefully going forward Kurt can move us to the head of the class. It is a new day.
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Hi - Is there a link on the BJC web site with purchasing and pricing info? Don’t see any mention of it there.
Give me a call and I can help you. 850-860-0940
I saw the entire video too, and have similar sentiments. The arguments made on both sides of this conversation makes sense, but at the same time, first hand experiencing a wide range of cables make it painfully obvious that there is a huge difference. I do question the ability of his system to resolve some of the differences we hear given that he was powering what looks to be a set of desktop computer speakers.
Siao
Yeah. I’m not sure whether you can or can’t discern cable differences on cheap-o setups but no studio worth its salt is going to listen to only a cheap system, especially when mastering good quality (in audiophile terms) audio. Point in fact is that most studios DO use cheap players, even car stereos to check their mixes. This way they can see if what they did is “listenable” on your Average Joe’s stereo/computer/iPhone. You won’t find this step at studios that produce classical music. 
Keep in mind that we are really ONLY discussing phase coherence differences. If a cable produces a change in the frequency balance of the material it really shouldn’t be part of the conversation to start with. Add to the problem here the fact that you have two (or more) separate channels of audio to deal with and that these two channels HAVE TO have phase differences to make stereo work. It would be curious to see comparisons of the left and right channel null between cable types. In other words, obtain Cable A (A Left minus A Right “stereo product” null) null, then obtain Cable B L-R null and thirdly, run the two nulls to obtain a secondary result. Nulling the nulls, if you will, essentially comparing the channel differentials for each type of cable. And yes, use real freaking music with real freaking meaningful phase information for this. Not…whatever that was… 
Also, and I’m asking this because I don’t know, does his device give a meaningful picture of frequency dependent phase shifts? Not just sliding the whole spectrum forward or backward a few clicks. Amplitude differences are relatively (if not exactly) in phase and therefor will give a reliable null product (non-null if there are differences). Phase, OTOH, when represented as a null of amplitude information (this is what his device is showing, I think), is a little more complex. Essentially, with his device, the amplitude data overwhelms any phase product that might exist unless the phase angle is closer to 180deg (out of phase but then inverted) where you would get an increase in amplitude (a doubling) on the null channel. We are not talking about anything even remotely near this kind of phase angle when it comes to cable misanthropy. Wouldn’t it be much preferable to represent the null data directly in phase information at a given frequency instead of trying to infer phase differences from an amplitude null? Did we get the wool pulled over our eyes or is this just my head injury talking?
I think you are on point.
If there are phase discrepancies in cables it will cause issues with both the center and the things that should be left/right simultaneously.
The center image can unfocus and spread while the left/right can collapse or do unpredictable things.
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A person can use an oscilloscope and do a null test (sum test) with one probe at the amp and the other at the speaker and easily see the impact a specific cable may exhibit. (and I can tell you all cables are not the same) Just use a signal generator with a square wave into the amp.
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Exactly. Thanks!
SAE had a device that taps the speaker leads with a super high impedance probe and subtracts the cable channel INPUT from it’s OUTPUT. What is left over is the “distortion” in the chain. The problem has been what is the CABLE going to the CABLE doing in the chain? Some things are really hard to measure (inductance) without partially changing them.
Sometimes you can measure associated variables that aren’t as sensitive, and work back to the related variable that is measurement sensitive. At RF, this can be done as impedance is square root of L over C. Measure C and Zo and work back to inductance. You can get Zo / impedance by using a variable termination bridge, and adjusting the resistance until the return loss reflections from the cable into the load reach a null / lowest point and that’s the cable impedance. This works across ALL RF frequencies since the velocity is stable. At audio, the impedance equation is far more complex since no variables fall out because they reach essentially a zero or a one.
Blame the changing dielectric constant for this problem! Velocity of propagation equals the one divided by the square root of dielectric constant (e). If you look at the graphs of that variables, it is constantly changing through the audio band. This change in dielectric, alters the final inductance and capacitance. ALL the variables are interrelated.
The argument that the telegraphers equation does it all is also way off from reality with such a frequency dependent reactance between the amplifier, cable and speaker. Oh sure, in theory it should show a reactance / phase for each frequency (not really impedance at the lower frequency of audio) but then, WHAT does THAT sound like? You simply can’t know till you hook the “network” all up. What ICONOCLAST does, is at least tell you what one set of R, L and C variables actually is to start with and what was done to get those values. The cable has to measure up, so to speak.
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I’m not sure I’m going to “blame” anything outside of the constant variable of the chain itself. Impedance of a given speaker is not universal to all speakers, (meaning it is unique to the specific speaker) and the reactance between devices in the chain, it is better to find a cable that interacts well with the whole. And as I said earlier, it’s fairly easy to measure at various frequencies to see the sum difference. Personally, for me, in my specific configuration, many different types of cables were tested until I found one that yielded the least sum difference for the combination of amp/speaker/cable I utilize for listening, backed up by room equalization evaluation.
It’s not for me to tell anyone what to spend or use for a cable, (and I was utilizing Kimber back as the early 90’s) but my current primary connect is one that is star-quad with hyperlitz and exhibits the least amount of sum difference and costs only a couple of bucks a foot.
And it is what cable specifically?
It is not one that has been spoken of in this thread, or generally mentioned on his board. Since it is not a Belden or PS Audio product, I’m not sure it would be appropriate. However, the method of testing the interaction of the cable you may have chosen can yield answers to it’s effectiveness within the chain as a whole. There are any number of choices to choose from in a cable, ranging in price from the cost of a lunch to more than a new home. I think I would prefer to focus on finding the right match to the combination of amp/speaker/cable.
It is perfectly appropriate; we discuss products from every manufacturer, including cables.
So what is it?
While I appreciate your willingness to allow other manufacturers products to be discussed here, I’m not sure it would be appropriate. Thank you for respecting my choice in this.
An odd position: proclaim a superior method of choosing a component, claiming the best result is an inexpensive option, strongly hinting at what it is, but then actively refusing to actually identify it.
Why did you post this tease if you will not share and help others?
Maybe it’s the CIA CONTRAS cables… Hush Hush…
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Fight Club cables…
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The method of testing (summing) isn’t new, and it is accurate. Geometry matters. I find it odd that you seem to want to force the issue. Best of luck in finding a great combination for your listening pleasure.
Listen: what if the secret cable is outed and someone thinks it sounds like crap?
C’mon Elk!
Boys…play nice.