Thanks Galen
What an elegantly informative explanation.
So, is the effect on sound quality of materials, OFE, sliver plate, etc also effecting harmonic localization or is it more a frequency effect?
Ron
And one last thing about the speaker cables:
It’s been suggested that burn-in is not required. I don’t agree. At first, there was some slight shrillness on some higher frequency horn or vocal passages. After about 20 hours, that’s gone and they have settled into a state of lusciousness, lusciosity, happy, happy, happy…
Ron,
The silver can only really impact the VERY highest overtones to musical fundamental, and those are around 8.5 kHz.
We hear very good localization in every day settings with near no high frequency content.
Topcoate skin are effective as frequency goes, up and wire size gets larger. The easy example RF, where the signal is only on the outer skin. Increasing the wire circumference improves attenuation as the volume of material is increased this way, more surface area.
Audio is really very LOW frequency even at 20 KHz. As wires get smaller, and you need more of them to curb DCR and attenuation in speaker cable, the top coat will become irrelavant.
The reason the better soundstage is present, is because the proper harmonic relationships are shared at far lower frequencies than harmonics above 10 kHz.
The argument that the costly silver coat may be unnecessary is why we offer the choice of the same copper, sans the silver topcoat.
Also, brightness is NOT the silver. We hear the hardness we call brightness Below 10 KHz, where the silver can have any impact at all. People associate this with poorly designed silver leads, and make the improper association to silver being bright sounding. That’s not true.
Silver, using adjustments to its properties, can be managed well. But, it is costly and the lower resistivity is not really an advantage, and the deeper skin depth is still very close to copper. The silver GRAIN differences may be the true attribute that defines the sound. I can’t confirm that with the exact same design as it is too costly an experiment.
Galen Gareis
Thanks Galen
One more question:
My speakers have std binding posts and Neutric connectors. Is there sound quality advantage to either?
Spades are the best, a solid gas tight seal. Avoid threaded junctions, or extra junctions, and spring compression style when possible.
We use the Cardas CABD banana for the long contact surface but spades with WBT solder are the way to go. Simple, and secure.
Galen
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Belden BAV XLR “Flexible” cables are now available in limited supply. The price is $300 per pair in the standard 5’ length. You may add or subtract $15 per foot for longer or shorter runs. Please keep in mind we do not offer cables less than 1-meter in length. The RCA variant should be available within the next 10-days or so. Galen has offered much information on this very special cable. It is a great choice on long runs and where bend ratios are in question. To place an order, please contact me directly.
Hey Bob, that is great news! Will these be made available on trial basis (like the Icono’s)? Also curious to see how closely the specs for the BAV RCA variant will match to the Icono’s RCA’s, considering it was so close between the 2 different XLR’s. Perhaps Galen can weigh in. Being on a budget, I’m ultimately gonna swing (or at least try) for a pair of the speaker cables and Icono Rca’s for my Pre>Amp connection. Would still like DAC/Pre, and Phono>Pre cables as well and with these lower prices on the BAV I may just be able to swing it now!
Jslatelv,
The BAV use a special polymer and process to achieve best in class flexibility, and measured electrical. The values are VERY close to the 4x1 ICONOCLAST XLR L, and C values. Resistances are, of course, the same.
We also have a RCA counterpart that match the XLR reactive electrical. Same, same as they say.
I can send you the BAV design approval report if you send me your email address; galen.gareis@iconoclastcable.com
The BAV design is an excellent value as it shares the iconoclast DESIGN but using cheaper polymers allows a lower price, and a design that is more durable in pro markets for such good measured electricals.
Galen
As Galen mentioned, the BAV Flexible cable closely mirrors the values of the Iconoclast Gen 1 products. These should not be considered and are not sold as Iconoclast branded products. The BAV cable is a Belden product produced in Richmond, IN that presently is only available through BJC. It will outperform most anything you compare with it. It is truly an incredible value and solves many problems. The original target model for this cable was the studio, production and mastering facilities and professional road show venues. Beta testers have unanimously been pleased stating that this is the best they have ever used. When we say flexible, we mean “flexible.” It is also tough as nails! I was amazed when I received a sample. Highly recommended where cost and bend ratios may be a consideration. Customers purchasing the BAV variant XLR and RCA cables will purchase the cables with the same “satisfaction guaranteed” warranty as other BJC products.
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Neat product!
VGMore on my ongoing Iconoclast trials. After running the iconoclast 4x4 XLRs and SPTC speaker cables I swapped in the Iconoclast OFE cables. I could sense a difference slightly on the movie but did not know if it was movie soundtrack. The wife and I first streamed the Bohemian Rhapsody movie which we both really liked and she kept remarking on the bass. After the movie I then went through a host of different streamed music genres with the OFE cables. I don’t know if it was lack of break in on the OFE or just my speakers not liking the copper having 48 silk dome tweeters. I started thinking the cables were out of phase, but hitting phase switch on my Direct Stream DAC would not do it. I even double checked polarity at amps and speakers. All wired normal. After about an hour playing various streams then completing following Sonny Rollins Saxophone Colossus “You Don’t Know What Love Is”, John Coltrane “Blue Train” Blue Note album then Neil Diamond 20th Century Masters the Best of “Sweet Caroline”. I had to stop. I told my wife it is like two blankets are thrown over the speakers. Where I usually played volume for a spirited 12 watt ouput it took another 5 to 6 volume points to get same wattage and still lifeless. I asked her if she was hearing it. I got the proverbial. It sounds great to me but you ears are more sensitive than mine.
So I immediately swapped back to SPTPC iconoclast speaker cables. Then I cued up Sweet Caroline again. Back was the ND voice textures, the violins, a kettle drum that was a real Kettle Drum not the dull thud. She then recognized immediately the stunning difference of a Iconoclast copper with my system. I then went back and played the Coltrane and Rollins and host of others I had just played with OFE with the SPTPC. Llwere pure magic It is either cable break in or needing shrill very hot speakers to make the OFE shine on speaker cables. I find it hard to belive OFE on ICs can be so great with SPTPC speaker cables, where in my system the OFE 4x4 with OFE Iconclast speaker cables, I was left wanting. I did experience details in the OFE cables which was overall pleasing like really layed back vinyl with smooth combined harmonics just no “live in the room feel”. To be fair I will let them, the OFE speaker cables cook under high current with a high current amp and haul them out again.
I will pull out the iconoclast ETPC speaker cables tonight and see if they pair closer to the SPTPCs for speaker cable in my system. The out of box experience with SPTPC was a completely startling revelation.
I do say the Audio Bacon reviews using 4x4 OHNO ICs iconoclast XLR IC and SPTPC iconoclast speaker cables, seems also to be the reference and the OFE and SPTPc complete audio magic to my ears so far, for me. I would recommend Audio Bacon try different Iconoclast coppers with different speaker types, perhaps metal coned drivers and domes or horns versus paper and silk for OFE speaker cables. I unfortunately do not have that type luxury since I have gravitated to liking Roger Russell speaker designs Had I only tried OFE in my system at this point I would not be the Iconoclast fan. It goes to show it seems to be all about the match.
Iconoclast will be my choice just which ones.
When you can play The Velvet Underground Heroin Loud when the guitar solo starts shrieking with Iconoclast 4x4 OFEs and SPTPC and want more volume, your toes are tapping and they hairs on the back of your neck stand up, because you feel as you are there live and your hands are not covering your ears, and you still sense musical excitement and electricity! You know what Galen designed is truly special and it is 1967 in your personal time machine.
Those of you with and without without Iconoclast try this?..
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Audio Bacon uses B&W with diamond tweeters.
You are hearing the copper, look at the measurements! No real differences at all on R, L and C. Now you know what’s what in your system. What can’t be measured is contributing to the sound. Nothing we measure or calculate changed. I designed the R, L and C with current coherence properties optimized, but the copper is a pure pass through for evaluation. We sell what is measured and / or calculated to be better in the audio band, and explain it, then measure your actual cable assemblies.
The oxygen free series copper we use in speaker and interconnect is OFE, the best continuous draw process wire you can buy based on grains and oxygen content. We don’t use OFHC as it crosses over into modern TPC purity values, so we mover up the purity scale a notch.
The low and high impedance wire differences aren’t the same so each set needs to be evaluated on its own.
YES, we are sending Audio Bacon all the cable wire types, too. Speaker and interconnect.
Galen Gareis
@rower30 So what does the ultra Pure Ohno Continuous cast XLR do to the sound compared-to the OFEs what would be expected in sound textures. Would the DirectStream to Preamp or Preamp to AMP or both afeected my sound appreciably? You must have experience in your system swapping iconoclast interconnects? Would The Ohno be worth my evaluation time?
What do you mean by this statement? The low and high impedance wire differences aren’t the same so each set needs to be evaluated on its own. Impedance differing between Copper types?
Here are the Specsheets comparing C,L,R the SPTPC has a few tenths less resistance than OFE Is that something to do with silver its increased clarity and less warmth or perhaps copper unexplained difference. I noticed capacitance is higher on the ETPC one side but they run close. What is allowed tolerance betwwen cable Left to right that is an audible difference?image|375x500
Vmax,
The UPOCC sound more like the TPC in my system. The OFE are warmer and more forward with the CLX.
That said, many LOVE the OFE, so it is too complex to tell you what you will hear.
For fun, I just moved from a benz ruby z back to a sumiko blackbirds and each cartridge sounds best with a different head amplifier! And no, the price had nothing to do with it. I did use the same 4x4 UPOCC XLR and RCA. So your system will respond like this, too.
Galen
So you’re saying the least expensive cable in your line, sounds more like the top tier cable, compared to the one in the middle, the OFE? Wish I would’ve tired the TPC instead of the OFE.
Gary,
The sound does not follow the price of the copper all the time. The measurements and calculations are the same. The copper is what is left. Get what sounds best to YOU.
Sounds like is not sounds the same, so don’t go there completely. But yes, the TPC sound really good and are a terrific value, too.
Hey Galen during the trial that I finished, I ended up with the OFE XLRs. I was just putting my stereo back together as I got a new shelving system. I noticed that one of the cables has a kink in it, I remember forcing this one a bit to turn the head to go into my DAC. Do I need to send it in to get that part cut off and reterminated or will it be ok as is.
Thanks,
Veneet
Vaneet,
These are true ultra-high performance air tubes! We need to take initial care routing them.
There is just no way to get ICONOCLAST electrical without the DESIGN and MATERIALS. OK, enough said there.
The one kink won’t kill you. If this gets to you, to reterminate BOTH cables would need to be sent back.
Always plug in the male plug first (plug on the cable with the three posts inside). This let’s you see the necessary twist at the female cable plug (plug on the cable with the three hollow tubes inside) so the minimum torque is used to place the cable. FEP cold flows over time, so the orientation will relax to that position.
For really tight spaces, the BAV design is the way to go as it will tolerate tight bends. But, it can’t be ICONOCLAST and do that, too. It can be very close, but flexibility is first on the list and MATERIALS are selected for that attribute and then the sound as close as I could. I got pretty darn close. The conductor design has to be the 4x1 verses the 4x4 for durability to match the flex properties.
The BAV white paper explains how all this is done. No secrets necessary.
Galen Gareis