Is mangle a term of art?
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Thanks everyone, for reviving the “need” to check fuse directionality. Seems like
everything else is audio “weird stuff happens” and there is a legitimate argument
from “its nonsense” to measurable science. I will take the recommendations that
the proof is in the taste and run with that.
If you pronounce it with a French accent, it is.
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Galen
I just installed your sptpc speaker cables, replacing the OFE.
Am I hearing things or is the soundstage dramatically wider?
How can this be?
Thanks
Ron
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You are indeed hearing things, it is wider. SPTPC works like a super tweeter, adding an openness that is perceived as more space, and left to right is where it is most evident. Reflections off the floor and ceiling limit those directions added space.
Also, if you use the 1x4 RCA or 4x4 XLR, the added coherence will sharpen and make the soundstage wider still. It works pretty simply like this; a well focused image will seem farther from other images aural to a less focused soft sounding musical event. The added edge definition opens up space that wasn’t there before.
The major element is COHERENCE across the frequency range with smaller and/or more small, wires. This presents design challenges that need to be addressed to not hijack L and C. It can be done but with different geometries and dielectric volumes than have been used to date.
These are really nice cables for what they do, and what they cost. They all work and work better as you go up the line and for explainable reasons.
Galen
There are people that will build this or almost anything for you for less than $200 bucks. Belden sells the cable in bulk. I feel Mogami is better anyways. I actually got much nicer cables(IMO) for $139. Six foot stereo RCA interconnects. Very well made.
Really? I don’t see the Iconoclast cable being sold in bulk anywhere. From the early discussions I heard on these cables, Belden wasn’t high on making an expensive cable with copper in air tubes - that was a tribute to Galen’s persistence.
Do you mean nicer looking, more nicely built, or nicer sounding? My problem with Mogami is that it is difficult for me to hear a difference over some Monoprice cables I have, whereas I hear more substantial differences in other cables - my Voodoo Evolutions, for example, are just better. I have the Iconoclast speaker cables and hope to try the interconnects soon.
I had Mogami Gold interconnects. Iconoclast are better to my ears on my equipment even in the TPC. I also switched from BJC to Iconoclast speaker wires also in TPC. Give them a try.
Its the design in this case, as much or more than the metals.
Aren’t you the $200k cable Guy, or am I confusing you with someone else?
Nope - I checked. You are.
We all change our minds from time to time, but that is one heck of a 180.
I had Mogami 2534 XLRs from BHK pre to BHK 300s. Switched to OFE 4x4 Iconoclasts- the difference was profound and immediately apparent, and I used to be a cable skeptic!
Like Mogami, GEPCO and Belden are nice cables but are not measurably made as well electromagnetically as ICONOCLAST. I designed past feelings and use the data, it tends to be a more accurate measure of progress. The cables are indeed better.
In use all cable changes will vary based on the network the cables create when plugged in. This is also driven by data.
Galen
Galen - your mentioning the network or system that the cables are connected to is timely, as I’ve been evaluating all three speaker cables. In my system (IMS) my experience so far is generally that the difference between the TPC and SPTPC is nearly the opposite anecdotally* from others here, to the extent that I’ve almost begun to wonder if they are mislabled! Yes, the SP’s have a “more refined” feel to them, but they are less open and detailed/more rolled off on top compared with the TPC - again, IMS.
What sorts of factors (types of amps and preamps and so on) might cause this? And just to be safe, is there a way to definitively tell one type of wire from the other - aside from the color or label on the shrink tubing? Not saying that has happened, but it occurs to me that it could. Bit of a head-scratcher.
- I will say though that I haven’t read a lot of the stories other than to skim some of them, in an attempt not to bias my subjective analysis in advance of experience. It’s been enough for me to get over what I have realized is a decades-old bias about how certain metals “intrinsically sound”. I seems clear to me in the case of your design that the configuration is the key to them doing what they do, as opposed to say, three of the same brand of more traditional speaker wires that only differ from each other or another brand due to what they are made out of.
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Galen
Re. the speaker cables, is there a rule of thumb or at least a recommended minimum burn in time before critical listening?
I have SPTC and OFE, the SP having approx 100 hours, the OFE 5 times that.
At first listen, I much preferred the OFE, feeling the SPTC were flat and uninteresting. But now after 100 hours on the SPTC’s, they’re my keepers. They’ve seemed to bloom beautifully with added realism and a pronounced widening of the soundstage.
And finally, re. the IC’s, is the difference between OFE and OCC just drawing vs casting or is there also an influential difference in the material?
I had a similar experience with the SPTC speaker cables. The stability and precision and relaxedness went significantly up after ~100 hours of burn in (I did not listen at other time points along the way)
Ron - curious if you tried the TPCs. The SPTPC were better than the OFE out of the box for me/ IMS, but the widest, free-of-the-speakers imaging and most “balanced” and “right” sounding at this point is still the TPCs. They do have the most time on them, and I auditioned three other brands in between (all of which were broken in) - all of which the Iconos beat.
So for me at this point it is between the TPC and SPTPC, with OFE’s in 3rd place - an order which has not changed to date (one month in). Bob has told me about how everyone changes their mind ; ). But not sure how many try all three. Not that we need to like the same thing, or that we wouldn’t agree about the choices in the context of our systems. Just wonder if you elected not to audition them.
re. the IC’s, after listening to the OFE for several weeks and now the UPOCC for three weeks at least, both used with the SPTPC speaker cables, there is an “influential difference” in the musical detail, clarity, focus, and soundstaging. The UPOCC were the “winners” to my ears in my system,
I’ll try to answer both questions;
- What is the network.
- Copper characteristics.
For graphs go to iconoclastcable.com or your speaker manufacturer’s data on your speaker.
If you look at a speaker input impedance trace you will NOT see a 2, 4, 8 or 16-ohm load but ”average” loads, and better yet, a value that depicts where the majority of the spectral energy is dissipated. Most energy is below 1 kHz, or the where about. That’s a good thing as my CLX are 0.5 ohms at 20 kHz! Not too many amps are happy pushing a signal into a near short. The majority of the signal is pretty resistive.
Look at the cable’s general “impedance” trace. It is VERY much higher at the low end and drops considerably as you go up in frequency. No, it isn’t ever close to the speaker’s spectrally dense impedance, either. This is the “network” that the amp sees as a superposition of the two elements; cable and speaker. Every cable to speaker load is different.
Zobel networks are designed to mitigate the worst cable to speaker and amp termination reflections…not the same as RL, Return Loss, reflections at RF, but what are called simple reflections. See Zobel Networks and Loudspeaker Drivers on WILKI. The basic function is to make the speaker look like a resistive load (remove the imaginary part of the impedance value).
As far as copper, the SPTPC and TPC copper is IDENTICAL. The only difference is the 40 micro-inch silver plating. Based on skin depth, there is really NO WAY that the silver can impact anything but the HARMONICS off a fundamental with anything except maybe an electronic instrument. We have to go with the calculations, and decide if the impact, and where, is possibly beneficial. If we feel it is not, use the TPC which are very good sounding leads. I offer all three copper choices as a service to the customer to define what is being paid for in a transparent, fair and even handed approach.
It would be hard to mix TPC and SPTPC at the assembly stage as the jacket color (red – TPC and Blue – SPTPC are evident as is the insulation color Red- TPC and Blue – SPTPC. Of course, the SILVER will be evident on the SPTPC wire itself during assembly. The OFE will also have the BLUE insulation, but no silver coating so it can’t be confused with the TPC or SPTPC. What you hear is accurate to your system. Wire mix-ups are nearly zero chance unless someone had a way too good time the previous night!
WHY the sound change with no DESIGN changes is the million-dollar question. When an electron is moved from one copper valence band to another by our input EMF signal, a PHOTON is sent on its way. The angle and magnitude of each PHOTON add to each and every other PHOTON to superimpose the final electromagnetic field. Are the magnitudes and directions of the photons significantly different in copper? I have no proof of that at all, just the fundamental that the outer electromagnetic field is created by many moving electron’s and their associated PHOTON.
Ideas are fun to read, but thus far I have seen ZERO proof of any argument as to HOW the electromagnetic field, with respect to frequency, is CHANGED by the copper’s structure. R, L, C and Rs are IDENTICAL between every ICONOCLAST cable and copper structure, same-same designs being compared. I’ve done my best to isolate attributes to show true CHANGE and improvements, but I can’t make stuff up and claim it is a tertiary variable to a known attributes measurement. The purist would logically STOP at the TPC as it represents the CHEAPEST design that captures ALL of the repeatable calculations and measurements. With true changes, the NETWORK can possibly provide a change in signal transfer across the audible spectrum. The REAL component vector magnitude at every frequency can be seen as a CHANGE within the reactive impedance cable trace. Speaker cones are moved by the REAL, or resistive, signal component. Change that and what the speaker motor sees is different and thus what it plays is different. C and L just store and release energy at a different time than intended. Neither reactive component “dissipates” energy.
Galen
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My interconnects and speaker cables utilize UPOCC wire (along with silver) and they have managed to best all others I’ve tried. One day when I’m more flush I may try Iconoclast speaker cables. . . but I’m afraid they’re just too expensive for me for the near future!
I tried the TPC IC’s and I liked the OFE well enough to buy them. I went back and forth a lot but the difference was easy for me to hear.
Hi Ron… I had the same experience as did you…and I bought the OFEs. The Beef was present at some listening and remarked on the difference in sound…and his hearing is better than mine. 