Hope people don’t mind me resurfacing this thread, which I found fascinating. I’ve been more than satisfied with my DSS for the last few years, but with recent upgrades to the reference system (Gryphon Essence) I’m exploring an upgrade. Basically looking for the next level in terms of noise, clarity and impact. DSS is great but it is definitely not the quietest or most dynamic DAC out there, nor was it ever intended to be. The design is brilliant and I think all the tradeoffs were the right ones - it’s the only DAC I’ve had in my system that never, ever sounds “digital.”
I’ve heard the MSB Reference stack and thought it was very impressive, but no way I am spending that much on a digital source. I was thinking of the Bartok, but have been skeptical of dCS. In the past I’ve frankly found their kit to be overrated sonically - great hifi, but dry and unengaging. I understand the latest generation is better, but from the above discussion, it seems like Bartok could be a lateral move from DSS. The way the DSS captures the tone and dynamic life of an acoustic performance is definitely not something I’d want to compromise in any way, and it sounds like I’d need to move up to the Rossini to clearly improve on the DSS.
What other very high-end DACs have people looked at vs. the DSS? I loved the Merging+PLAYER when I heard it - while I haven’t compared it in my system, it struck me as potentially cleaner and more dynamic than the DSS while still being very engaging.
It’s always interesting what people mean with (not) sounding “digital”.
If compared to analog or the best DAC’s, “sounding digital” means harsh, analytic, artificial etc., then most DAC’s meanwhile got rid of that. If one means flatter in 3D palpability, emotional connection and dynamic impact as well as limited in open top end, then many DAC’s still have those characteristics imo or begin again to drift towards the first category of “sounding digital”.
For me “digital sound” of the first kind is history more or less. The digital sound to overcome now is of the second kind and possibly needs the upgrade you’re looking for to get closer.
For me digital sounds “synthetic.” I realized this while in music school and spent some time in our recording studio. Even though it was relatively modest setup, I was shocked at how alive and immediate a live feed sounded vs. the DAT recording. But also it was the way the digital recording distorted things in an unnatural fashion. Signal loss is one thing, unnatural distortion is another.
I think the DSS does a terrific job not messing things up “digitally.” While it’s certainly not perfect, it never distracts me in ways inconsistent with natural sound. What I’m looking for now is simply less signal loss and noise. Agree with the qualities you describe, though for me it’s basically about realism - I was a violinist and my wife is an oboist, so the real thing will always be our reference. To my ears digital is well ahead of analog in that regard, even if analog often does sound more musically evocative. I can’t shake all the distortion and coloration inherent in LP reproduction no matter how lovely and emotional it sounds.
For me (to my ears that is), digital “sounding” (harsh, cold, analytic, artificial, metal sounding) does very much still exist with DACs like MSB Discrete, Chord Dave, Mytek, Bricasti M3(which is the worst I have heard in a long time ).
I guess it depends on who is listening, what kind of music repertoire you listen to, and the synergy between music server, DAC, amplifiers, speakers, and cables …
With you on Bricasti, Mytek and most Sabre-based units (Merging excluded). I didn’t mind the DAVE as much and it is much quieter than the DSS, but yes, it has a bit of glare.
I took delivery of a DCS Rossini and Clock this Monday. I traded in my Lumin U1 and DSD. I had several reasons for this change. First the DSD has come to the end of it’s product life. I wanted to upgrade so the DSD II probably would not have been the upgrade I sought. I know the TSS Signature DAC is coming but PS Audio product schedule is full of delays and unknowns. This is not an attack on PS Audio’s technological abilities but a recognition of the difficulty bringing a new complicated piece of high fidelity equipment to market fully ready. I also sought to consolidate the number of pieces of equipment from 3 to 1. The Rossini does full rendering of MQA. I also have found the Mosaic app superior to the Lumin app. Now I went from 3 to 2 because I used the long lead time(9 weeks) to talk myself into getting the Clock at the same time instead of waiting until next year.
I have only 30 hours on the Rossini so far. The Rossini is a big step up from the DSD. Even this early I hear a much larger soundstage with greater depth. Placement of instruments is more precise and defined. Clarity and definition of low frequencies is greatly improved. I am expecting greater improvements over the next 70 hours.
It was an enormous amount of money and diminishing returns is certainly in play. I am confident I made the right decision.
The DCS Rossini and Clock are outstanding in my opinion. I have heard that combo a couple of times at a dealer. Like you I have been demoing a few Dacs looking for a replacement to my DSD I sold a while back.
One thing for sure is there are some great Dacs out there. You just need to find the one that fits your listening style.
I am very, VERY pleased with my Gryphon Kalliope.
I know it is not on anyone’s list, which worried me but no regrets here.
If you want cheap thrills, the MBL N31 with the Roon Card is an absolute blast! The problem is, just like with Gryphon, when you buy one piece you want the whole set. My friend Matt has the MBL set and I’m going all Gryphon. (Not including speakers) Matt has the MBL speakers too which is how it all started.
Consider the Gryphon Ethos, seriously.
Edit: quite a few people who reviewed the MBL N31 now own one. I had one in my home for two weeks and would love a mental breakdown that would allow me to buy one. But I believe I have it outperformed but nowhere near as kewl as the way MBL does it. The system integration is superb. You hit the power button and the whole system goes dark. Hit it again and it comes back ready to resume the song you were streaming. And it has one of them there slot load thangs you can put a shiny disc into. Yikes. I want one
Yes I understand what you mean, I’m at least also hobby musician and live concert fan and even without that experience, I think both digital and analog miss the quality of a live feed. In my perception, although tape and analog playback always have a certain coloration, their bothersome influence, with rising quality of the gear minimizes strong enough, that the advantage of analog‘s natural realism still overrules the better accuracy of digital and its lesser ability to transport atmosphere and other information getting lost or badly affected somehow.
For me it’s a matter of gear quality how little analog colorations have negative influence and positive characteristics overrule and a matter of gear quality how much digital downsides still influence and how much its accuracy offers mainly positive characteristics. I think depending on the gear quality of both we use at home, opinions on which is preferable vary. I personally haven’t heard a digital production yet, transporting the information content (I don’t mean the coloration) of top analog.
Actually for me, the DSD Sr. s almost perfect, but I still hear some digital harness in the highs in certain choral music passages, and it causes me listening fatigue.
This is why I am so anxious to hear the new Sunlight firmware: I hope it will fix those highs.
If not, I will have to start looking for another DAC
@aangen no doubt Kalliope is excellent, and Philip and Pandora @ On a Higher Note couldn’t stop gushing about their Ethos. I was hoping the Zena DAC module for my Essence preamp would capture some of that magic, but the DSS edged it out. There was a very slight unnatural edge to the Zena, similar to what I hear with other Sabre-based DACs, that I couldn’t shake off. Yes, it sounded slightly more “digital” to me. However noise, bass and dynamics were slightly better than DSS - gotta love those Gryphon Class A analog stages. And I admit I hardly made an attempt to optimize upstream… rPi 4 with a DH Labs USB cable and Audioquest JitterBug is about as far as I’ve gotten. I’m going to (very begrudgingly) try different ethernet cables and look into the UpTone Regen now…
I was thinking of the Bartok, but have been skeptical of dCS. In the past I’ve frankly found their kit to be overrated sonically - great hifi, but dry and unengaging. I understand the latest generation is better, but from the above discussion, it seems like Bartok could be a lateral move from DSS. The way the DSS captures the tone and dynamic life of an acoustic performance is definitely not something I’d want to compromise in any way, and it sounds like I’d need to move up to the Rossini to clearly improve on the DSS.
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