“Effortless” is a pretty accurate description, Ted. Hit the nail there.
Mine isn’t fully broken in yet but OMG how harmonious, engaging, inviting it sounds. Was sort of AB-ing a Miles Davis SACD (Bags Groove) playing on the Oppo then same file played through the DSJ and cannot tell which is which!
No-one here wants to push you or pressure PS Audio into releasing something that you’re not 1000% behind and happy with. But you see a weird voice is haunting me in my sleep almost every night and it says something like “Torreys” ;o)
ksalno said
Ted, what is your opinion of adding two DS Jr to an existing DS for a 5.1 surround system when the new Transport comes out? Is there enough of a difference where that wouldn't work or do you think that using the DS Jr for the surround ambiance channels would be ok?
Hmm, good idea: the relevant software/hardware is identical between the DS and the DS Jr. The software that came with the Jr was essentially Yale and we'll be releasing the software in parallel for the DS and the DS Jr from here on out, so it's very likely that they will continue to work identically in this respect. I'll keep it in mind for future releases.
EfeTe said
No-one here wants to push you or pressure PS Audio into releasing something that you're not 1000% behind and happy with. But you see a weird voice is haunting me in my sleep almost every night and it says something like "Torreys" ;o)
Anyone that knows me knows that I don't react well to pressure :)
I took the time I needed to do the changes that I’d planned for Torreys (and other releases as well.) PS Audio is taking the time to do a lot of testing for the FPGA changes as well as the other system changes. I hope we don’t have any regressions, but I’ve been running the FPGA bits I propose to release for the DS for a couple of months and about a month for the Jr and haven’t seen any weirdness in normal use.
TED, can you please provide more information regarding the differences between JR and DS in the output stage?
If I well understood, DS has output transformers while JR has a operation amplifiers.
The DS has four differential “digital switches” with passive filtering in parallel and summed just before the transformer per channel, the Jr has one switch with passive filtering before the output opamp. The transformer in the DS is almost directly replaced by a high speed fully differential opamp configured as a low pass filter (which has high common mode rejection like a good transformer.) In addition they share similar passive filtering both before and after the transformer/opamp. They both use 0.1% thin film resistors and 2% film caps in the passive filtering and they both switch in 15 Ohm 0.1% thin film resistors shunts to ground to implement the 20dB attenuation option. The output impedance of both the DS and the Jr is set by the output passive filtering and both can be shorted indefinitely with no harm. (In fact that’s what the standby mute does.)
Ted Smith said
I think the DS Jr has the features of the DS sound that I appreciate - engaging, effortless, detailed without being harsh, ... The Jr has a little less black background, a little less precision in the soundstage, etc. If you walked into a room and didn't know which was playing I don't think you'd instantly say "this sucks" or "this is obviously the DS". But hearing them back to back the differences are fairly obvious IMO. As to whether the DS to Jr differences are bigger than the Pike's Peak to Yale differences I think depends on your listening preferences. The soundstage shape changed a little from Pike's Peak to Yale and tho most liked it a few didn't. I don't think the sound stage change is as big from the Jr to the DS. I wasn't fond of 1.2.1 or Pike's Peak and definitely liked Yale better, but to me those changes seem to be just different than the DS to the Jr changes so I can't really answer your question directly.
I read about 2 times here that people sold their DS for a DS jr. To ask for your opinion afterwards, what's better, was the reason for the question you answered here as far as I understood
This is something beyond my logic (as I guess the DS sells used for the same price a new jr. costs)
From what I’ve seen, used DS have been selling cheaper than a new DSJ (depends how hard you tighten the thumb screws on the dealer for a DSJ).
It took me over 6 months to sell my DS, there was virtually no interest in it on eBay, only a couple of very lo-ball offers. Eventually it sold, and the price I got for it was better than the current used market price (and less than the RRP of DSJ).
A P10 exhibits lower output impedance, greater reserves, etc. Even on a system which would not challenge a P5’s capabilities, a P10 will sound better.
Yet, everything is a matter of degree and diminishing returns. I tend to find the source critically important and would go with the DS first, but there is no bad choice.
We had a brief power outage, barely enough to reset all the clocks.
The DSJ started playing files as if they were 45’s not 33’s…Faster…After a few minutes trouble shooting the computer and the rest of the system, I rebooted the DSJ and after it went through its start up everything was back to its normal terrific self.
Tech HiFi said
Here is what I am struggling with... A DS w/Bridge II vs. a DS jr and a P5. About the same price
You have good quality equipment, so I have no doubt that you would hear the difference between a DS and a DSJ, even though the latter provides very good performance at its price point. From your signature, it looks like you listen exclusively to digital, so getting the best source might be a good idea. You could always add a P5 or P10 later.
Do you prefer the DS Jr to the DS on an absolute level or is this a price/performance evaluation. The same question goes for the P3 vs. P5 or P10. I certainly do appreciate the price/performance option when the performance gap is close, and absolutely so if the lower cost equipment is superior in absolute terms.
I do get how a Jr + P3 could outperform a DS alone, but how about when both are being fed from the same power source? One of the advantages of separate equipment is that you can buy the best DAC today and later buy the PowerPlant to further improve your system performance. At least that is how I see it.
Thanks, Ted, for responding to my recent post re the DSJ’s habit of starting in mute after powering up or switching sources, and unmuting when the volume knob is turned. FYI, this happens regardless of whether the volume is at 100 or some other setting, or whether the unit is started from power-off or sleep. Of course, this behavior is not at all a problem. It’s easy enough to unmute by nudging the knob, and thereafter the unit stays unmated unless the source is changed.
Overall the DSJ is a wonderful instrument. My compliments!
Do you prefer the DS Jr to the DS on an absolute level or is this a price/performance evaluation. The same question goes for the P3 vs. P5 or P10.
The DS didn't float my boat. It was a frustrating experience with the eLyric, and the sonic performance was unremarkable compared with other options. That assessment of course was based on the software of the day (pre-Yale), which has evolved since then.
The DSJ with Yale is a better experience than DS pre-Yale. I’ve never heard both platforms side-by-side with the same software.
Regarding P3/5/10. The P3 works. The P5/10’s kept breaking down. The P3 also has a HC zone that is not limited by a regenerator, which the P5/10 do not have. I do not need the regenerating capacity of the P5/10, or the legwork needed to get them fixed. The P3 better suits my requirements.
I like the DSJ, but it’s not my reference DAC. I look forward to the next iteration of the software. My reference DAC is a static device, the software in it isn’t going to change so over time the DSJ will catch up on it. This is a major advantage that the DS/DSJ has over many other designs. There is genius being applied every day to make it better, and the application of such genius doesn’t cost me anything.
p.s. just on the reliability of the P5/10, I think they worked out the issue and implemented a fix. So can buy now with confidence.
Odds are that I will get a P3 myself when I can afford it. I actually prefer the NuWave like aesthetics of the P3 to the PerfectWave chassis design of the P5 and P10 and my power requirements are modest - at least in one system. Perhaps there may be a P10 in my future, but that is far off at this time.
I’ve just made an interesting observation with the DSJ. I have the Magico repair tech here doing diagnostic fault finding on my speakers. He has his sweep tone generator plugged into the optical input of DSJ at 0dB ref using the DSJ volume control to set the levels. When there is a pure tone going into the DSJ, as the volume stepper dial is rotated up/down there is an obvious clicking noise in the speakers. The clicking noise is not evident for musical content, only with a pure tone. The DSJ must be imparting this artefact as the sweep tone generator is set to a fixed level output (the only variable is the volume control in the DSJ).
There’s a small DC offset in the output of the DSJ that depends somewhat on component tolerances. It’s the one tradeoff of using these particular opamps which otherwise are excellent for the purpose.
DS and DSjr – keeps reminding me of nintendo!