Directstream Mk 2 observations

I stopped at the bookstore again last night. The new HFN wasn’t yet there, but the previous month still was. I noted that the Lumin T3 dac ($5k US msrp) scored an 88%. I also noted that the dCS Bartok Apex ($20k roughly? not sure) also scored 88%.

As I wrote somewhere, probably in this thread, I’d classify those scores as just above average, with 87% being average (just my off-the-top-of-my-head, unscientific assessment having read maybe 50 issues last 8 years). I’d guess Lumin were satisfied to get 88% for the T3. I suspect dCS were hoping for better, as they typically receive 90 or better it seems.

I try to skim an issue and if it reviews something I’m interested in, I’ll buy the digital version, typically.

<Taps the sign>
Do you mean accuracy, or do you mean [quality, engagement, musicality, enjoyment etc. etc.], because the two are not the same, as discussed at length in previous threads e.g. for the BHK preamp.

…and I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive, just not the same.
If it sounds good to someone, and brings them joy, then that is the correct thing for them to buy.
(simplistic, but a good starting place)

@SDL NOT a dig at you, or anyone, just seemed a useful place to point it out in this fascinating thread :slight_smile:

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this is exactly the statement that should have been included in the Stereophile article. Simple and to the point. This is why it measures this way.

Joma, when I talked about “accurately” correlating a measurement with some characteristic of sound quality, I was using accuracy in the sense of having validity and reliability. In other words, does a specific measurement correlate significantly with a specific aspect of sound quality? I wasn’t necessarily saying that accuracy in sound reproduction was the only goal of a good DAC, although that type of accuracy is certainly important

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Since so many here slam the Stereophile review, I propose that an acceptable review be submitted without measurements and controversy and include unanimity.

I re-learned last year when I wrote/published 4 books, writing 1 sentence is easy, a paragraph difficult.

Ted mentioned earlier that JA’s testing methods are not a good match for other good-sounding DSD-based DACs (such as those of Playback Designs), and kzk posted a link to a 2010 review in Stereophile of a Playback Designs SACD player and DAC. Mike Fremer liked the sound of the DAC, but JA didn’t like the measurements. The response from the manufacturer was well-reasoned and explained why JA’s methods were not appropriate for this type of technology:

"We would like to thank both Michael Fremer and John Atkinson for the time and work they put into reviewing and testing our Playback Designs MPS-5 SACD/CD player. We were very pleased that an analog lover like Michael would enjoy our digital player.

Most of the measurement results are generally to be expected from the way they were measured. What differentiates the D/A converter inside the MPS-5 from other, more conventional converters is that it uses all custom algorithms and discrete components that were not designed following classic theories and practices. A large percentage of your charts show the behavior of the MPS-5 in the frequency domain, and only two charts show the time domain, although with rigid sinewaves as test inputs. While this would be totally adequate in most cases, it isn’t for the MPS-5. For instance, most of the filter algorithms inside the MPS-5 cannot be described or even defined by feeding them periodic test tones such as sinewaves and looking at frequency charts. They were designed for real music signals, and therefore “listen” to the input signal and vary accordingly, to take advantage of how our ear perceives music, which never even resembles periodic test signals. It is common knowledge that such psychoacoustic criteria hardly ever lead to ideal measurements based on steady-state test signals.

Right from the beginning, the design goals for the MPS-5 were to reach new heights in sonic performance with real music signals rather than optimum test-signal measurements. The result is that the algorithms may not perform optimally from a measurement point of view when they have to process test signals, but, as your review also confirms, they do their assigned job quite well when processing real music signals. As we are always researching new ideas, the next-generation algorithms may very well make these kind of measurements even worse—but we can assure you that it will be for the benefit of sonic performance. Isn’t that what we are all after?

Again, thank you for the wonderful review!—Jonathan Tinn, Andreas Koch,
Playback Designs"

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Interesting interpretation.

Here is a Holo Audio Spring 2 fed with DSD256 - audible region noise floor is very low. In fact up to 100kHz is low

The DSD256 noise hump that is past 100kHz cannot be escaped of course

But it doesn’t mean at all that 0-20k noise floor has to be high…

Which is why I’m confused by @jkrichards finding of noise at 300kHz causing abnormally high audible region noise floor. Similar finding to Stereophile and HiFiNews

These are all public post measurements on audiophilestyle forum by HQPlayer developer (there are many PS Audio customers using HQPlayer over the years)

Wonder if Stereophile loved it would folks be suspect?
Is all this dialogue cause folks were blindsided by this given all the dialogue from PSaudio that lead us all to expect a different review

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From our measurements and stereophile measurements.

(Copyrighted material removed)

Isn’t the Holo Spring2 an R2R DAC? It can process DSD input, but it appears to be a different basic design than the DS MK2 or the Playback Designs DACs.

No

The PCM conversion is via R2R section. It takes up large space in the Holo

The DSD conversion is completely separate discrete section . A small board in the Holo

The discontinued Holo Cyan allowed you to only order DSD board and you can see in photos it is small

In the Spring and May models, you are forced to have both PCM and DSD and the small DSD board is underneath the PCM R2R - harder to see in photos

Hmm, OK. A question which warrants a book not just a forum comment, but here goes.

The main dimensions of performance for a DAC are:

  • Hitting the exactly correct voltage for each sample
  • Reproducing each sample at exactly the right time
  • Making the transition between each sample track as closely as possible to a perfectly bandwidth-limited waveform with no components above the frequency that is half of the sampling rate

The last point – filtering – is in some ways the hardest, because in theory it can be done perfectly but only if you have a perfect recording as well as the ability to perform calculations on the entire length of the recording all at once. In practice, filtering is compromised and different filter design choices can lead to very different sounding products – even on the exact same DAC. The filtering implementation can include both physical (analog circuits after D-to-A conversion) as well as mathematical components (calculations on the data prior to D-to-A). And there is a niche class of DACs which have no explicit filters at all… they just let your ears/brain deal with the issues.

Measurements which tell us something about a DAC’s filtering characteristics include impulse response traces (amplitude vs time) where we can see pre/post ringing; group delay (phase shift vs frequency); standard frequency response plots (amplitude vs frequency); and imaging/aliasing of a fixed input tone (amplitude vs frequency).

The second point – clocking – is very challenging in both design and implementation but thankfully is pretty easy to observe. Jitter sounds BAD. Less jitter always sounds better. The DS DAC family is particularly good in this respect and I believe that’s a large part of its appeal to listeners.

Jitter observations (not measurements!) of an entire DAC system are usually shown in the form of an amplitude vs frequency plot of the DAC’s reproduction of a pure sine wave. Jitter is visible in the broadening of the base of the spike, as variations in timing cause variations in frequency at the analog output. Actual measurements are hard. In rare cases we might get a “phase noise” plot showing the amplitude (of jitter) vs frequency. There’s no single number which can describe jitter though, so be cautious of anybody relying on “piocseconds” or “femtoseconds” in their marketing.

Now the question of how exactly the machine turns numbers into voltages. This is the main area of difference between all those architectures you listed. The simplest mechanisms just take each (PCM) sample as it arrives and select a combination of resistors in a circuit to try and map the numeric value to a corresponding voltage. Ladder DACs and R2R DACs work this way. The challenge there is getting the level of detail that we want across the dynamic range we can hear. Each binary digit (bit) in a sample adds 6dB to the range of values the sample can represent. 16 bits gets us to 96dB difference between the largest and smallest values, with 65,535 possible points, and that is sufficient to make audio which sounds really good to humans. But to build that with resistors in a ladder or R2R arrangement requires 0.0015% precision!

Measurements of a DAC’s precision often turn up as noise floor plots (often with a very low level sine sticking up from the floor), and the occasional amplitude vs time trace of a minuscule sine wave where you might expect to see a three-level stair step shape.

But it turns out that with the crazy advances in computing-power-per-dollar over the decades, we can now transfer some of the budget from precision resistors and spend it on precision silicon to get better overall performance. The idea is to have a DAC mechanism with many fewer possible output levels operating at a much higher frequency, feed it a calculated signal which contains the original audio with very little noise in the audio band but a whole bunch of noise higher up, then take the output from the DAC and pass it through a simple analog filter to attenuate the ultrasonics. The vast majority of modern DACs use this approach, with a combination of digital filtering to produce a high frequency version of the input, then sigma-delta modulation (and noise shaping) to reduce the number of bits per sample. The DS DAC just happens to take this all the way down to single-bit form.

There aren’t any new kinds of measurements to consider for that, though your noise floor certainly looks different as the number of bits decreases and you rely on noise shaping to move that energy into higher frequencies away from the audio band. That’s essentially the focus of the recent conversation re Stereophile and the DS MkII.

One other point to mention just to round out the differences between some of the DAC architectures you mentioned: parallelisation. You cannot expect perfect hardware, but you can use an understanding of statistics to get a group of devices to behave together as if they were a single more-perfect device. DCS takes this to an extreme with their Ring architecture (SDM to 5-bit, then a ladder-like decoder which randomly selects from a pool of 60-odd resistors for each bit IIRC). Ted has given us four parallel digital switches per channel, all active all the time, for the same reason. These hardware components, along with the quality of power supplies and the mitigation of EMR, set the physical noise floor for the machine.

What we’re sort of hoping in the recent discussion on this thread is either that a modification to the way the noise floor measurements are made will show that the DS MkII is actually performing competitively in that respect, or that a modification to the digital filtering or SDM algorithms will deliver a quieter audio band. Or alternatively we might decide that it sounds great so the measurement is irrelevant.

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Dvorak, I really appreciate you taking time to give me a detailed response to my questions. I have to admit that I didn’t fully understand all of your comments, but I have a lot of respect for anyone who takes time to educate other members of the forum rather than just fueling arguments.

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Looks like an excellent summary to me, nice one :slight_smile:

Well said
Wow!

Or another option - better analogue filtering of the noise that is around 300kHz that @jkrichards has found, as has Stereophile and HiFiNews

Unfortunately that would mean hardware change.

There is only so much changes in digital filtering and modulator design can do, especially if (and I don’t know for sure yet) the noise is the DSD noise hump.

You can reduce its level with modulator design at the tradeoff of worse audio band performance… no free lunch.

And see my post above of Holo Audio Spring 2 measurements (another discrete DSD DAC). There is no jitter along with a very low noise floor :

Directstream Mk 2 observations - #2013 by wobblewobble

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While I have a lot of respect for JK, I’m unsure what to make of the 300kHz reference. As far as I know (which is a reasonable amount but I’m not trained/qualified in this area) random noise way up there shouldn’t be having an influence on measurements in the audio band, especially not in an AP analyser with brick-wall filters enabled. I’m watching that conversation with interest.

Holo Audio are seriously clever people too. Their technology for measuring and cancelling out the error in their R2R ladder is frankly genius. I don’t know anything at all about their DSD implementation though – is it just a fast switch which responds to incoming DSD bits without doing any additional processing?

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Correct - direct DSD to analogue conversion in that sense. Which is why it is a popular favourite among HQPlayer owners. Many are on this forum too, using Holo DACs with other PS Audio products like amps etc.

Agreed which is why I showed plots of Holo Spring 2 with DSD256 input - very low noise floor.

I can’t quite find the wideband linear sweep plot showing the DSD256 noise hump but it is just past 100kHz and does get up high in level but does not significantly affect the sub 100kHz region noise floor, as per plots above.

True. But it should be noted that not only did Fremer like the sound of it, he effusively praised it, and articulated that in many specific areas the $15k Playback Designs unit was better than the $80k dCS unit he’d reviewed months earlier, said the PD was perhaps the best SACD player he’d heard at any price, said its sound was on par or nearly so with the $80k dCS stack, and on and on.

That was a big difference from the subjective portion of the mk2 review, where no indication was given that it was better in any respect than any of the seven non-PSA dacs, especially versus the Benchmark where it was very conspicuous how JA viewed those two in comparison. But with the mk2 subjective review was JA and not Fremer, so in that aspect apples to oranges as between the two reviews.

But yeah, JA hated the measurements of the Playback Designs unit, although for one measurement (I forget which), he did say that the PD unit had “astounding (positive) performance,” which I don’t think happened anywhere with the present review, but on balance JA was, I think, more negative on the PD measurements than he was on the mk2 measurements, but I need to stress that was measurements only, not sound quality, as in that case measurements were JA’s only role in evaluating the PD, unlike the present review of mk2 where he did both measurements and subjective listening evaluation.

Shakespeare had a play that sums up this measurements controversy it was titled”Much ado about nothing “. My MK II sounds fantastic and that is more than good enough for me.

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