That is interesting, I think Steve may have had the same thing. It is kind of weird as the first one I bought is normal and then the other one I got to change the LEDs to blue (and as a backup, just in case) also has the channels correct.
I tried using that Audiophile test disc that I linked above, and on tracks 24 (left channel) and 25 (right channel) the sound comes out of the correct speaker.
I wonder if they just have bad quality control?
Let me know what happens if you run the same test, I am curious!
The hdmi board definitely has the left-right reversed. I played a few tracks and it is obvious (most symphonies have the first violin on the left and cello section on the right, from the listener position.)
I asked the seller about it and hopefully there is a fix.
Other than that it would be a great way to listen to sacd thru the oppo and ps audio.
Great to know, do you think it would be just for DSD content or in general, as mine seems fine with PCM but I don’t actually know a way to test for DSD content.
Got the test download in DSD and you are absolutely correct, for DSD the channels are reversed. They are correct for PCM only.
Please do let me know if they come up for a fix for you, I will have to contact them as well (X2!)
Great find Veneet! I picked one up to use with my OPPO BDP-95 which I am using as a transport into my DSJr. I have both coax and HDMI/I2S hooked up for comparison purposes.
From some quick listening tests (Redcloud) :
With Redbook CDs, there is noticible veiling of the higher frequencies via the HDMI/I2S converter vs coax.
With 24/192 DVD-A, same veiling but to a lesser extent via the HDMI/I2S converter vs coax.
With SACDs outputting DSD the Oppo does not output via coax at the same time so I can’t do a direct comparison. The DSJr display shows DSD64, confirming that DSD is being passed. SACDs sound quite good, no noticible lack of high frequencies. I did compare the SACD Dexter Gordon’s Dexter Calling 24/192 MQA Tidal via the Bridge input, I noticed a better representation of space with MQA vs SACD but about what I would expect going from DSD64 to 24/192 MQA. I would not consider SACDs to sound veiled at all via the converter as with the coax comparisons.
I am not sure why formats other than SACD fare poorly via the converter, yet SACDs sound great, any ideas?
From what I have heard so far, I would use the converter into HDMI/I2S only for playing the DSD layer of SACDs (as long as swapped channels doesn’t bother you) and bypass the converter for everything else.
From what I have heard so far, I would use the converter into HDMI/I2S only for playing the DSD layer of SACDs (as long as swapped channels doesn’t bother you) and bypass the converter for everything else.
Anyone else done similar listening comparisons?
First of all, thanks to Veneet for the idea and helping with the construction. He’s really great.
As for the sound, I don’t have any SACDs, but my findings so far 18 days in with an Oppo 203 (modified) and CDs and files off a USB flash drive are the same, with one caveat: there’s a significant volume difference between Snake River Boomslang coax and HDMI/I2S board, at least three clicks on the counter (and remote) that needs to be dealt with in comparisons. At similar actual volumes, they are much closer but the board seems to move the sound back and take away some of the depth, lending a 2-1/2 dimensional quality. I’ve noticed it especially in the midrange, where voices, for example, are smoothed. With an edgy recording, that helps, but otherwise coax is noticeably better. What we’re hearing is definitely the card, not the cables, as I tested with a Mapleshade HDMI cable and got the same type of results. I’m not sure if the PS Audio HDMI cables are returnable, although I was thinking one might work well with the cable box to Oppo 203; I don’t think the other will make any difference with TV, as the Jenson cable isolator has so far rendered cable quality irrelevant with my TV.
I would like to see if it is the OPPO is sending the signal with pre-emphasis via HDMI, or if the board is indeed adding the tag to the signal. If anyone has a different source that they can hook up via HDMI to the board to send a PCM signal to the DS DAC to see if De-emphasis turns on.
Alternatively you could send the OPPO HDMI signal to another component that recognizes pre-emphasis and see if it shows up there.
No setting I have changed on the OPPO has stopped the DS DAC from turning on De-emphasis, nor has changing the toggle switch on the board stopped it either. This is only for PCM stuff.
If someone has a chance to test, please let me/us know.
The problem is almost certainly your adapter and not the Oppo.
In the signals of an HDMI connector used for the PS Audio I2S there are two control lines (the I2C SDL and SDA signals on pins 15 and 16 of the HDMI connector.) They are nominally defined for control signals in HDMI and PS Audio uses them for that, but not necessarily as I2C nor with HDMI standard commands. You could send a message to PS Audio support and ask how they are used to signal Preemphasis, I don’t know for certain that PS Audio wants that known, but in general they are fairly open about such things.
I would like to see if it is the OPPO is sending the signal with pre-emphasis via HDMI, or if the board is indeed adding the tag to the signal. If anyone has a different source that they can hook up via HDMI to the board to send a PCM signal to the DS DAC to see if De-emphasis turns on.
I purchased this board as an experiment, and I can indeed confirm that this board is NOT a quality product. Why do I say this? Let me count the ways:
100% of PCM signals which are extracted and are sent via I2S get their pre-emphasis flags set, result into some very PCM sound over I2S. This is even true for those rare disks which have pre-emphasis for which the Oppo already de-emphasized. This is regardless or resolution. This happens to BOTH redbook CDs and 24/96, and 24/192 PCM as well. The slightly redeeming factor is that this does not also happen over SP/DIF. But that’s has other issues which I will describe below.
DSD only passes through the adapter when it is set to 5.1 Mode (not bitstream as one would think). Any other mode, and your Oppo will convert all DSD into PCM.
The SACD channels are reversed. But on the plus side, it will actually send what appears to be genuine pure DSD from the OPPO to the DS when everything is setup perfectly.
It down-samples high-res 24/96 and 24/192 PCM to 24/48 PCM though ALL outputs. And again, if you are using I2S, prepare for dullsville because the de-emphasis flag will also be applied.
If you use to extract even rebook data over sp/dif (which in theory it does OK, because it does not apply de-emphasis), it will not sound as good as the same redbook sent directly from your Oppo’s SP/DIF output.
If you don’t get all of the setting absolutely perfect on both the Oppo, the board, and all connected HDMI devices, the Oppo will convert your DSD into PCM. And when this happens, de-emphasis will be applied to your formerly DSD signal too.
So the moral of the story is for anybody buying this board: Use it ONLY for DSD over I2S. For PCM, you’re better off with a simple coaxial connection straight from your Oppo. And so far as I can tell, it will NOT pass any high-res PCM regardless of how anything is set up.
I’m pretty sure that I had at least one other issue with this board, but I have forgotten what it is now.
Thanks for laying it out, Veneet. Has point 2 about DSD requiring 5.1 been passed along to the sellers? On point 3, did you mean to say send DSD to the Directstream, not Oppo? I think your conclusion must apply to SACD only, as I got the de-emphasis result via DSD files played from a USB flash drive. I suppose we ought to ask Oppo if there is any way the 203 is sending a pre-emphasis signal via HDMI.
Thanks for laying it out, Veneet. Has point 2 about DSD requiring 5.1 been passed along to the sellers? On point 3, did you mean to say send DSD to the Directstream, not Oppo? I think your conclusion must apply to SACD only, as I got the de-emphasis result via DSD files played from a USB flash drive. I suppose we ought to ask Oppo if there is any way the 203 is sending a pre-emphasis signal via HDMI.
Thanks for catching that Typo (now fixed, btw). It CANindeed send a true DSD signal from an SACD when everything is setup perfectly.
And your de-emphasis result is consistent with when the Oppo converts the DSD to 24/88 PCM. When all of your settings on both the Oppo, the device, and all attached HDMI devices (such as you monitor) do not support DSD, the Oppo will convert your DSD to PCM. And when it does this, a De-emphasis will be applied to your formerly pure DSD signal which is now only 24/88 PCM over the I2S connection.
So while I did not test my oppo with a DSD file like you did, I’m pretty confident that this is what is actually happening for you. When the true DSD signal is passed (this is a bit tricky to make work, make no mistake), it does NOT apply de-emphasis.
With the USB flash drive and using the Oppo’s HDMI output, and its HDMI audio format setting as Auto, why wouldn’t the signal being fed to the card remain DSD? There’s a DirectStream on the other end, with the audio signal going from there to active speakers. But then, either way, DSD or PCM, using HDMI the card is apparently sending a pre-emphasis signal to the dac, which destroys the primary purpose of using the card for I2S.
Firstly: When an Oppo detects ANY HDMI device connected to it which does not natively understand DSD on the line will convert the DSD to PCM so that the device will understand the data stream. This means that simply connecting an HDMI monitor to the Oppo can screw you, if you don’t have all of your setting perfect.
Also, you need to have all of the internal settings inside of the Oppo just right before an Oppo will even attempt send a genuine DSD signal instead of trying to convert it to PCM over an HDMI connection.
FWIW: I fought with this configuration for nearly two hours before my DS finally reported that it was seeing a DSD signal. I was nearly ready to come to this thread and declare BS on the claims that it was even possible to get DSD out of this card, before I finally stumbled upon a configuration on a combination of my Oppo and this card which did not convert the DSD into PCM.
Secondly: I would be honestly shocked if I should learn that de-emphasis flags are even part of the DSD or SACD standard like it is with redbook CDs and PCM. De-emphasis was something from the very earliest days of CDs and it has been thoroughly obsolete since the mid 80s. So I strongly doubt that even the turning-on of such a flag for a DSD stream is even within the realm of possibilities. But I could be wrong about this, so perhaps somebody who knows more about this topic than I will correct me if I am mistaken in this assumption.
Just to be clear, I have an F8000 model HDTV hooked to the Oppo for video only.
So what are your Oppo settings for DSD?
The pre-emphasis/de-emphasis issue seems to be originating from the HDMI/I2S card we’ve been discussing here and thus showing up on the DirectStream and as as dulled mids/highs and reduced volume level in listening.
My oppo is not in front of me at the moment. So its going to take a little work to report all of its settings for you. But I will consider going through all of its settings tomorrow, if I have the time.
Can you definitely confirm without any doubt that while you played your DSD file memory stick that your DS was indeed reporting exactly “DSD 64 1 Bit” at the exact same time as the de-emphasis icon was also appearing on its screen? Because I have yet to be convinced that you did indeed witness this precise state.
I’ll have to hook up the box again to check what you are asking for. The de-emphasis icon was evident from across the room, but I didn’t look for anything more. But like I say, that’s the least of our problems.
On mine the de-emphasis icon is lit 100% of the time when either a PCM signal is present, OR when no signal is present. But this icon disappears the instant that a DSD signal is recognized, and it re-appears the instant that the DSD signal stops.
So while this board has lots of bugs and limited uses, it can indeed be used to extract genuine unmolested DSD from your Oppo. But the card is totally worthless for PCM. However you can always utilize a SP/DIF or Toslink connection to your Oppo for low-res PCM. High-Res PCM is another problem though, and this board is not useful for that.