Here's the correct way of measuring a Power Plant

Hey leean welcome…PS Audio makes very wonderful gear
aimed at improving, maximizing our audio experience…

I Have owned several PS Audio power plants and loved
what each one brought to my system…

The upgrade path has lead me to my P15 regenerator…truly
a wonderful piece greatly improving my systems enjoyability…
regardless of some few others may say otherwise…

Best wishes

2 Likes

I only glanced at the doc, but I may be able to somewhat explains where the DC comes in. This may be where certain individuals are harping on the AC-DC-AC shtick.

Just from looking at the flow chart, the incoming AC is used as a basis to create a 5v peak to peak signal.

That 5v signal is used to generate a simulated, ‘corrected’ sine wave. The AC (in the US) is supposed to be 60Hz in frequency, but most times, it only gets close to that at best.

The “simulation” is likely via PWM (pulse width modulation) - without getting into the heavy stuff, it’s using a bunch of square waves, of varying widths, to represent what the 60Hz should ‘look’ like in a digital domain. This is where the ‘DC’ comes in. PWM signals, by nature, are DC signals (on/off of varying widths rather than positive/negative). The vast majority of inverters that do pure sine waves use PWM.

This now 5v PWM signal (DC) is used to reference to a 2.5v sinusoidal signal (analog/AC - 2.5v because half the 5v is being used as a reference for positive, the other half for negative) which is then further filtered, then amplified - much like how an analog amplifier takes the low level signal from your DAC or preamplifier and amplifies it even more to finally send to your speakers.

So the ‘DC’ part is not DC in the sense of positive/negative(ground), but more related to PWM, which is inherently more akin to DC than AC.

The power to do this amplification, by default, has to come from mains power, since it’s not a gas or propane powered inverter generator creating power via an internal combustion engine.

5 Likes

The Correct Way of responding to Measurementalists (objectivists who believe a Measurable aspect of a Thing is equivalent to the Thing) is to ignore them.

Can you believe Amir the Merciless has posted YET ANOTHER VIDEO with a 10 minute rant at the end about one of Paul’s posts above. He seems to on the point of tears. I scanned it as it was painful to watch. I’d have been ashamed if one of my kids had moaned like that when he was aged 10, let alone 65 or whatever. There are of course already many pages of abuse.

It’s a bit like @chrisj1948 ‘s pigeons. They serve little practical purpose and all they do is dump on you. @badbeef is correct, you feed one pigeon and the rest of the flock turn up pecking you.

3 Likes

That’s very interesting reading @st50maint , thanks for sharing that.

But doesn’t explain this slide from ASR’s video.

6 Likes

I’m a P12 owner, and I would love to see a PS Audio response to Amir’s data on the P12 not regenerating AC.

3 Likes

No, the P12 and all modern Power Plants are not traditional regenerators (which are 50% efficient). They regenerate and regulate the hot side of the AC line with a tracking power supply in an effort to improve efficiency (which is now about 85%).

Their purpose is to lower impedance, regulate the AC, regenerate a new low distortion sine wave, and (with MultiWave) extend the peak charging time of the waveform—and they perform these functions beautifully.

I think we’ve been pretty clear about all this since the inception of the Power Plants (their patented circuitry is readily available through Google patents).

As to why we didn’t use the fancy scope, I suppose I didn’t (and don’t) see what difference that would have made. Unless I am missing something, the front panel scope does quite a nice job of showing the differences. We weren’t trying to make this a big production or an answer to anything. I simply wanted to make an easy to understand video showing what the Power Plants do and hopefully what value that is.

11 Likes

Thank you Paul…a great service you have provided our
systems with…and because of the efforts you and Bob
Stadtherr we can enjoy a more articulate sound system.
Certainly this is the case for me going all the way back
to about 1996 with the Quintessence and Soloist.

With every step along the way from P5 to P12 to P15
my system’s musicality has developed and matured in
a wonderful way…

Unfortunately there are those (and quite a few) that still
believe the Earth is flat…and love to loop round and around
and argue despite the evidence provided, disrupting wherever
they can…(sound familiar?)

What ever the contrarians conjure up does not in any way
detract from the amazing benefits PS Audio’s power regenerators
provide ours and my system with…

May the consumer demand on PS Audio’s ever increase the
sales and distributions of your power plants…

Thank you Paul and Bob…
God Bless you guys

Best wishes

2 Likes

And there is the answer. Thanks for elaborating @Paul

1 Like

Quite frankly, I don’t see any need for measurements… plug it in and the audible improvement is obvious to anyone

7 Likes

This is all so Shakespearean. . . “Much Ado About Nothing.” :slight_smile:

PS Audio fails to rebuff. . . a claim they never intended to have made.

2 Likes

Exactly…well said…
Just like the review of the antique
Fisher 500C reciever by stereophile mag…It sounds
wonderful still and can acquit itself even when put up against today’s…but measures are well not the best
by any means…

Just goes to show measurements and testing needed but not
the final say by far if something will sound good or not…

Best wishes

Thanks for clarifying Paul.

I guess it’s my fault for being misled into thinking that my P10 & P5 actually completely regenerates an AC signal after having fully rectified the incoming AC.So, they do not.

Also, the omission in your post regarding cleaning up noise on the AC line is also quite telling. This explains my experience.

Most unfortunate :slightly_frowning_face:

3 Likes

And this is why @Paul it is taking his nothing said is better. Why stoop to his level. BTW this “measurements” things is spreading. I am in a FB group and someone posted the video review by an online retailer of Anthem of the new Anthem AVM90. They were going off on how the video had not measurements and how they have to wait till ASR measures it. Now the AVM90 is a breast. Anthem has a proven track record of quality products (As does PS Audio). So I really don’t get this omg take the video down stance. Its a retailer showing all the new goodies Anthem built in. Like 4 Sub Arc room correction. People have been waiting a long time for that. A new improved web tool…A DAC on each channel for best sound. It literally just rolled off the shelf and all they want is measurements. This is not good for the hobby. Measurements to me were always that thing you glanced over and said ok, within the space of a human cannot tell the difference. Which is what just about everything is now. I just don’t get this cult like blind following.

2 Likes

This is not new or spreading, IME.

I have been avoiding and ignoring the hardcore “objectivists”, including the ASR acolytes for a long time.

4 Likes

Do you think this makes your equipment sound worse? Measurements are great, but what do they mean to the end product, the music reproduction? I think Amir falls for the same thing he says Audiophiles do, bias. He measures it and wow, look at the numbers…then listens…wow its great. Really? If you think it makes it sound worse, then sell it and move on. I bought my P10 used, and when I replaced my 15 year old Tice PowerBlock III I could tell things just seemed a bit cleaner. Each step I have taken in the past year (I just got back into this after about 10 years of doing mostly HT improvements) has had impacts on sound. Many of it due to Paul, and his book and his videos. Other videos as well, but I really started to enjoy his methodology of design and build. Im talking about going back to the 2014-2017 videos he has up there. Ted and Bascom getting into the design aspects and why this was done this way compared to what I would call the conventional way. These are why I traded up my all in streamer / DAC (matrix mini pro 3) to the Sonore optical Rendu and PS Audio DAC. Researched that I probably wanted R2R, and loved that disconnect the noise from network to my streamer. Those made huge impacts on my sound quality. Forums like this and combing through what I will call the mess of posts and opinions is a choir but you find a wealth of knowledge. Unfortunately threads like this derail that and suck you in. Give you that bit doubt in your choices and in the end do nothing to change your mind and just gets you all pissed off. I still start Amirs videos (forget the web site and roodness and oogling of Amir) and then just get so frustrated at his attitude and just not saying much at all in the end except oh look .00034 vs .00001 wow get that one its much better. please.

BTW, I stumbled across a video (youtube put in my list) of Stereophile doing a long review with measurements on the P15. it was what a real review looks like.

The only hing I cannot figure out is do I upgrade to a new P15 while on sale or not.

3 Likes

Hey brian…could you please provide a direct link to the review?
I could not locate one for P15. They have one for P12, P20 and
P10…

Thanks

By all means make use of the P15’s special sale price…
You won’t be disappointed…you can always return …home trial…

A special sale enabled me to get an otherwise unobtanium.

Best wishes

I don’t think this measurements thing is spreading at all.

Go back 40 years and measurements were the primary purpose of reviews. I’ve mentioned before my magazine of choice, Gramophone, used to call them Technical Reports.

We now have proper full measured reviews (Stereophile etc.), popular audio subjective reviews (no measurement), amateur subjective reviews (for webpage clicks), press releases - and online measurementalists like ASR.

One of the ones I like is the Hans Beekhuyzen YouTube channel. He’s an extremely experienced digital engineer, has access to a lot of products, listens, measures, examines circuitry and generally talks a lot of sense. He has been operating twice as long as ASR and has 10 times as many Youtube views than ASR.

I take the view that ASR and its type are very loud, self-righteous and indignant bunch completely obsessed by their own self-importance to the audio industry, not realising that it is largely an echo chamber that has no practical impact on mainstream or high-end consumer audio behaviour.

If you look at the ASR review index, you will see that they review hardly any regular consumer or high-end products. Like - almost none. This is because people don’t send him expensive stuff, in one notable case because he is not insured and won’t get cover, and manufacturers aren’t going to send him stuff either.

So Chinese manufacturers send him a lot of stuff, presumably for free publicity, and everyone is happy.

6 Likes

Here you go

2 Likes

Well said. It was what I was trying to say. Lol. I meant the ASR crew is just getting out of hand and spreading.