Is Roon support going to be EOL?

Audio Components DACs
61
markus46 said

Really?!? Sooloos is gone?

Meridian still advertise Sooloos gear and they released a software update (v2.535) in May this year. So, on the surface at least, I don’t think your statement is quite correct.

Why not (as mentioned by another poster) create the absolute technically advanced Bridge card possible for the DS Snr/Jnr with different software specific to and optimized for the protocols you want to support? i.e. Create the best DLNA solution for Bubble UPnp etc
Create the best sounding and most highly functional ROON endpoint out there.
Heck - doing that may bring new customers to PSAudio!

Sooloos was sold to Meridian some time ago and they've hardly kept up, but you're right. When Enno and the guys sold Sooloos to start Roon most of us stopped looking at Solloos because Meridian never really supported it well in our opinions. So, I stand corrected. Thanks.

The reason we choose not to support DLNA after being one of the pioneers in doing so is the problem of third party apps like Bubble UPnP, and others. They’re good, not great. They are also technical headaches for many. Perhaps 50% of the tech support calls we get are in support of DLNA third party apps - apps which we have zero control over. If you’re doing ok with an app, or comfortable with JRiver’s complicated interface, then that’s great for you. What you’re missing is the 90% of our customers that struggle with a clear, easy solution. Think about this for a moment. Imagine you’re a stereo owner and you’ve heard about this streaming business and want to get involved. You purchase a Bridge from us and plug it in. Now what? You are told you must now have a server (what the F is that?) and you must have a controller (?). We patiently walk you through adding some third party program for the server, like JRiver. You open that program up

Imagine you’re a stereo owner and you’ve heard about this streaming business and want to get involved. You purchase a Bridge from us and plug it in. Now what? You are told you must now have a server (what the F is that?) and you must have a controller (?). We patiently walk you through adding some third party program for the server, like JRiver. You open that program up and before you is a dizzying array of choices and menus. Does it just work out of the box? Hell no! You gotta choose where your device is on the network. Then you have to setup this and that. We have two full pages in our How To section devoted just to getting JRiver running. And that’s just the damn server. You still have the controller to go!

Most of our customers are turned off by all this. Even the single easiest program of them all, Roon, is a challenge. Roon must be installed on your computer. Then you need to install an app. Then you need to negotiate the network.

We have two full-time guys working with customers to get them up and running. Once customers are up and running life’s good.

For the tech savvy among you, this all seems silly. It is not silly. It is a tough transition for many.

Playing a vinyl record is easy and obvious. Why can’t our network audio be that simple too?

That’s why we’re building Octave. If we control the end to end user experience then we can make sure it is truly plug and play.

Years ago we built our own app called eLyric. We did this because at the time there were no good DLNA/UPnP apps available (that’s still somewhat true today). We poured hundreds of thousands of dollars into it and it failed, though many still thought it was the best interface they had ever used. It failed for a number of reasons, but mostly because it was trying to work with too broad a group of devices that are DLNA compatible (including our own).

This whole ball of wax is what Steve Jobs and Bill Gates struggled with. Their decisions lead to very different paths. Microsoft with open platform come and get it, Apple with their walled garden controlled user experience. Over the years Microsoft has moved much closer to Apple’s vision so that now, most Mac users can almost run a Windows machine. But it never went the other way.

Our goal is, and always will be, the enhancement and perfection of our user’s experience both in terms of usability and sound quality. The only way to make sure our customers experience what we do in Music Room One is to make it easy and possible to build and use what we have. That’s where we’re going and Octave is a step in that direction.

I will remind folks that Octave is at least a year in the future and things will change along the way.

62
pmotz said

Thanks for the great writeup Paul! A few points of clarification. No computer necessary, got it. But you do need to store the music on something, so that could be either the new server (Octave) or a USB hard drive, correct? Any other possibilities? I know there is another thread on the Octave Server (hardware), my recollection is it is an I2S device, so need no need for Bridge III with that, correct? You mentioned above that Bridge III will have multiple USB ports, presume that means multiple USB hard drives can plug in? And the music on the USB hard drives can be selected by an app on an iOS or Android device? Does some component of Octave need to be installed on the hard drive(s)? And, lastly, will there be a way to stream internet radio with Octave? I actually do that more than listen to the music I have on the computer hard drive! I would not like to lose that option. I will be keeping a close eye on this, any chance we can see some of the comments the beta testers have made?


It’s good to remember just how far away Octave is, so let’s not get too worked up over the future just yet.

I do think it’s helpful for me to answer some of these questions and so, here goes.

  1. Octave in whatever form it takes (Bridge card, dedicated server with multiple price points), is a network player. This means it connects to your home network as well as the outside world over the internet. So, any computer or NAS on your home network can easily attach to Octave. Just point Octave towards the network share and it joins your library. Music stored on your computer, or NAS, or USB hard drive is automatically cataloged and added. Easy.
  2. There are USB ports on the rear. You can use these to attach any size hard drive filled with music and Octave will take over from there.
  3. You can add Tidal to your library as well as Spotify (for now). Instead of struggling with Tidal's lousy interface, Octave just makes Tidal's million plus songs look like it's on your own library. Same with Spotify.
  4. Internet radio will, of course, be available through Octave.
Hope this answers a few of the questions.
63

That sounds great Paul! I already know a friend who will be very happy with this, who didn’t want to bother with any PC and network stuff and waited for an USB connection to the Bridge.

For myself this already enters a clarification stage which is just based on my most important demands to the application.

As you liked Roon and its crosslinking functions I assume, you will take care to implement similar features anyway. I bother more about some Jriver functions I and possibly others use. Would be interesting to know if you already planned the following basic functions:

  • unlimited custom tags
  • unlimited customizable views for use within the app based on standard and custom tags
  • edit tags by PC and Tablet
  • drag&drop albums to other Windows applications (no must, but nice to have)
  • keyword searches through views by tablet
  • batch tag changes and field replacements (no must, but nice to have)
  • access to attachments like jpg, pdf within the music folders from standard tablet views and forms
In case you planned them I just have a slight difficulty to imagine how some customizations can all be done by tablet or web interface instead of a PC program. So my main question is: even if one doesn't have to use a PC, will there be a PC interface as a Windows program available? If not, will detailled customizations like with a PC program or drag&drop be available from the web interface? To me web interface mostly means a limitation to very basic customization options, but it doesn't have to.

Generally I think for first customers all this is a great idea and I’m sure support and reaction to user demands will be great. You just might loose some of those who got used to their preference and its individual functions for a long time and don’t want to move. Your savings from trouble and troubleshooting 3rd party applications might compensate this.

Depending on the covering of basic demands and new features I can already imagine it could get better than today also for me.

I wonder how hard Bridge III must be busy with covering all the application demands and how add. heat dissipation will work inside the closed cabinet. But probably that’s an easy one for you. Most important and best ever is, that it continues to stay a plug in card.

64

Thanks Paul! I wasn’t really worked so much as made more “aware” of how Octave might change how I listen over the network. Kind of that “light bulb” moment. I’m good (for now) and will watch octave’s development a little closer now …

65

People should bear in mind that with Octave they are gaining options, not losing them. If you like JRiver or another program better, you can keep using it. The same applies if something better than Octave comes along. If you have a DS or DR Jr with a Bridge III and don’t want to use Octave, you can still use the USB (or I2S) inputs with whatever software you like. There are third-party devices with USB and I2S-outs that work much like the current Bridges, plus an increasing number of third-party dedicated servers. Our DACs are not going to suddenly become obsolete because somebody invents a new server approach. Choice is a good thing.

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Paul,thank-you for your clear and concise clarification on the subject of in-home audio from the "pits of hell".. I do not use computer audio, and quite frankly, will not even considering using it,with all of it's intrinsic nightmares that keep me,and I'm sure,many others..a million miles away from ever even thinking about using it as a legitimate playback solution for in home audio use. I do not have the patience or will to even attempt it...Life's way to short!
In regards to Octaves yet future release, if you can make my audio life a blessing..instead of a nightmare..as most people would consider computer audio..then you will have my vote as a future Octave user/purchaser.The future looks bright for those of us who have intentionally stayed away from computer generated music for in-home use [reason foretold].
PS Audio R-O-C-K-S in its forward thinking. Bring on the future!!!
Mark
67

Hi Paul,

your comments in post #61 describe me to a ‘t’. I’d love to get in to streaming but I have zero interest in navigating what I see as a challenge to get it to work and also and perhaps a bigger headache is finding solutions when it goes wrong - almost everyone I know has stories of ‘the day(s) the music died’. :slight_smile:

i had Jriver and a bunch of hi-res & .dsf files on a USB drive but I rarely play them as it’s easier to slide a disc into the DMP or to play an LP. That’s how easy I want streaming/digital to be.

68

Roon is as easy as I can see it getting short of someone coming to your house to show you.

Everyone is probably deterred or a little shy about whatever is new to them. For a young punk like me, that means uneasiness setting up and maintaining a vinyl setup which is one big reason I haven’t gone down that rabbit hole. I have absolutely no idea what to do but this is laughable to a bunch, I’m sure.

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Paul McGowan said

It’s good to remember just how far away Octave is, so let’s not get too worked up over the future just yet.

I do think it’s helpful for me to answer some of these questions and so, here goes.

    1. Octave in whatever form it takes (Bridge card, dedicated server with multiple price points), is a network player. This means it connects to your home network as well as the outside world over the internet. So, any computer or NAS on your home network can easily attach to Octave. Just point Octave towards the network share and it joins your library. Music stored on your computer, or NAS, or USB hard drive is automatically cataloged and added. Easy.
    1. There are USB ports on the rear. You can use these to attach any size hard drive filled with music and Octave will take over from there.
    1. You can add Tidal to your library as well as Spotify (for now). Instead of struggling with Tidal's lousy interface, Octave just makes Tidal's million plus songs look like it's on your own library. Same with Spotify.
    1. Internet radio will, of course, be available through Octave.

Hope this answers a few of the questions.


I must be missing something, so I apologize in advance if this is a stupid question but how is Octave different from Aurender or any of the other high-end music players/servers out there already?

I think one reason some of us went the PC route is that these “closed” systems like Aurender don’t allow any modification to the music path. So it isn’t possible to insert an Upsampler like JPLay or any room correction software. Will Octave allow for this?

How will Octave work with non-PSA devices? I have a number of DACs around my house, not all of which are PSA. One thing I like about the software you mentioned like Roon and JRiver is I can stream to any of them and if they don’t have native capability, I can buy a $500 network device that will get them on my network. Will Octave have a similar option or work with devices like the microRendu?

Karl

70

Hi Karl, great question. It can be confusing.

Octave is the operating system and UI of our new server. The hardware itself will be varied. It can be internal to our DACs, as in the upcoming Bridge III, but mostly we will make a number of variously priced and featured boxes supporting Octave.

These hardware devices will connect to external DACs like what you have. They will output in standard formats, USB, S/PDIF, AES/EBU, I2S. You can take that stream and do whatever you like with it: upsample, play through the DAC, etc.

Does that help?

71

So Paul

If I understand correctly with a PWD and a Bridge 111 and an external USB music drive plus an iPAD you have a complete Octave system, is that correct?

magicknow

72

Thanks, Paul. Is your intent for Octave to support convolution for room correction?

73

No. I have never been a big fan of room correction or EQ. I am kind of in the purity camp when it comes to the signal. I would imagine one could take the output of Octave and do whatever one wanted…

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Paul McGowan said

No. I have never been a big fan of room correction or EQ. I am kind of in the purity camp when it comes to the signal. I would imagine one could take the output of Octave and do whatever one wanted…


I wish I could agree with this for my system, but to my ears, the sonic benefit of a slight (2 db + or -) bump up in the 4-8k region for my Audeze LCD-4 headphones is so great that I am compelled to use just a little EQ.

75
Paul
Did you see my question?
If I understand correctly with a PWD and a Bridge 111 and an external USB music drive plus an iPAD you have a complete Octave system, is that correct?
thanks
magicknow
76

Sorry. Yes, that is absolutely correct.

77

If no USB music drive is added, will Octave be reliant on the PSA server? Or will I be able to access music on any network device using Bridge III?

From what I’m gathering so far, this all sounds incredibly similar to an Auralic Aries Femto and Auralic Lightning DS OS, and wondering where the differences may lie…

78

You can access anything on your own network or any streaming service you might sign up for (like Tidal or Spotify).

79

If I understand correctly we even get acces to cloud services like Dropbox and Google Drive and my favorite Qobuz? happy-132_gif

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David Bernat said . . . to my ears, the sonic benefit of a slight (2 db + or -) bump up in the 4-8k region for my Audeze LCD-4 headphones is so great that I am compelled to use just a little EQ.
This is not surprising. Many find the mid-treble/presence region of the LCD-4 to be a bit recessed. On the other hand, many find the Sennheiser HD800 too bright. For each group, a bit of wide-band EQ is just the thing.