Is Roon support going to be EOL?

I need to admit that I read Brians old technology comment and was a little irritated at first. But I also understand.

I look at it this way. My Directstream Snr was released what, 2 years before the Jnr. I have owned it for 5 months. Likewise the Bridge II.

Do I care that my DS was released 3 years ago?? Not one jot! Why? Because it’s class leading. That simple.

Besides which. Huron is like 6 weeks old so by that measure it’s brand spanking new technology laugh

Likewise my BII is about to support Roon & MQA so it’s also brand new.

I love Roon and have no intention of moving. Not an issue as I trust PS Audio to keep supporting it.

Now if Paul wants to cause me a problem by producing something better than Roon. Well that’s a problem I’m happy to tackle at the time and if it improves my listening then I might just go with Octave.

That’s the way I look at it anyway.

So Brian you might just have looked at it from the glass half empty perspective. But regardless whether your glass is half empty or half full - I hope that half is beer beer_gif

Cheers,

Alan

Elk said

Technology changes fast, which makes all of such purchases at least semi-obsolete quickly.

It is worse with services such as Roon. Not because Roon is suspect, but because one needs to invest in hardware, setup a system, buy into the environment, etc. This takes time and effort. Asking a dedicated tech user to switch platforms is threatening enough. But hinting that you will take it away from him can get you seriously injured.

I still think that the way that Roon is handling the hardware part is intriguing, i.e. selling a customized COTS server in different configurations but also releases a BOM so DIY guys can assemble it themselves (low cost solution).

Let me add on to Elk’s note about nothing being taken away. He was right to suggest people get emotional when they feel threaten in that way. Glad Bridge II will continue to be supported.

Another option: Build a Bridge 3a and 3b. Both would handle higher resolution rates than Bridge II e.g. DSD128, but one would be geared to Octave and the other to Roon… Thus an upgrade path for all!

I assume Jriver support will continue to be available in Bridge III?

One of the real selling points of the DirectStream line is that, by adopting an FPGA software-based methodology for digital processing, buyers purchase and own hardware that can be continually upgraded, so that SQ improves as the software technology evolves. We’ve seen that, as Pike’s Peak evolved into Yale, which evolved into Torreys, which is now Huron. So, by offering current users of Bridge ii a goof-proof way to conveniently upgrade to Bridge iii when it rolls-out, I believe PSA would enhance its reputation as a leading-edge provider of obsolescence-proof digital audio technology. Just my two-cents…

Hans said

Let me add on to Elk’s note about nothing being taken away. He was right to suggest people get emotional when they feel threaten in that way. Glad Bridge II will continue to be supported.

Another option: Build a Bridge 3a and 3b. Both would handle higher resolution rates than Bridge II e.g. DSD128, but one would be geared to Octave and the other Roon… Thus an upgrade path for all!


This would be very nice indeed.

Unfortunately this is unlikely to occur.

Not only would this demand the resources to support two different protocols, PS Audio would still be facing all of the inherent problems with basing a product on a third-party’s whims.

Given what I have experienced is Roon’s compromised sound and PS Audio’s track record, i expect Octave to sound better than Roon. If additionally Octave’s interface is at least as good (PS Audio promises better), Roon users will have an incentive to switch.

Elk said

I expect Octave to sound better than Roon. If additionally Octave’s interface is at least as good (PS Audio promises better), Roon users will have an incentive to switch.


Elk

I don’t disagree with your sentiments. I just hope that if Octave is as good as hoped-for, PS Audio will create and offer to its heretofore loyal customers a viable, convenient and affordable way for them to upgrade their DirectStream/DSJ units.

DB

Paul has said unequivocally that there will be an upgrade path for both the DS and DS Jr. How “affordable” they will be remains to be seen but I’m sure PSA will do its best to keep the price down. I would be surprised if the upgrades were less than the current cost of a Bridge II, however. Bridge III will have to have more horsepower than Bridge II so even keeping it at the same price would be tough. For the DS it should just involve swapping one plug-in card for another. For the Jr. it sounds like it may be a bit more complicated.

jazznut said

I assume Jriver support will continue to be available in Bridge III?


I don’t think so. DLNA/UPnP will be EOL too. Would have to stick with Bridge II.

I can’t imagine that a streaming device solely supporting a proprietary software will sell well.

I think the idea is you buy all in. If it’s good enough… Will be a tough nut for PS Audio. No offense to Paul, but I don’t see great software coming from them. Hope I’m wrong.

amsco15 said

DLNA/UPnP will be EOL too.


While I have not read anything specific saying this, Paul has said things that could infer this is correct. As such I sure hope Paul reads this and clarifies. While I have no specific need to move on from JRiver, I would certainly like to be aware of it not being operational with Bridge III. Music management is not a high priority for me, at least right now. Just the same, keeping fully aware of what PS Audio is up to is a good thing!

Apologies if I missed this, but what is the planned form-factor for Bridge III ? (Will it be a card ala Bridge II, or a separate box).

And will Bridge III be the Octave server (with USB to external drive) or just a client?

It will be a card, same as Bridge II.

We haven’t any plans to support DLNA. Our goal is to eliminate the need for a computer in the mix altogether. This might be tough for diehard computer lovers. It’ll take time, but we are trying to straighten out what we see is as a lot of missteps in streaming audio. JRiver and iTunes are great examples.

JRiver exists for the same reason iTunes does—they were once necessary to play digital audio from files—holdovers from a time that’s come and gone. They are very much like the tail wagging the dog. Computers were (and remain) separate machines dedicated to many tasks: word processing, browsing, email, spreadsheets. We run our business and some of our lives on them. They also do music and for quite some time, they didn’t do it well. Some of the earlier Microsoft products were simply dreadful. Then along comes iTunes, Apple’s entry into digital audio and music services.

JRiver, and a host of third party music management programs sprang up to augment (and sometimes replace) iTunes because iTunes had no aspirations towards high-end audio reproduction. Serious music lovers wanted something better and JRiver and the like gave it to them. But we still needed a computer which lived in places rarely close to where our stereo systems were. Then things started to change.

About a decade ago, a group of rebellious young guys put a computer motherboard in a nice box, added a touch screen video monitor, and sold it for a lot of money through hifi shops. It was unique because it was a purpose built computer dedicated to playing, managing, and connecting with music. It was called Sooloos and it was all the rage.

PS Audio (and others) soon took a similar (but different route) in an effort to bring high-resolution digital audio simply and easily to our stereo systems. All were attempts at freeing high-end audio systems from the necessity of having to be tethered to a computer.

Today, Sooloos is gone, but a new crop of dedicated computers emerged called servers. I haven’t found any servers yet that I like, but we as an industry are making progress.

Octave hopes to free us from our computers and give us the freedom to bond with our music and play it without worry of sonic degradation, software hassles, network nightmares, learning curves that cross eyeballs (JRiver, anyone?).

We believe digital audio ought to be fun, easy, hassle free, and computer free.

I think that when you see what we’ve managed with Octave, you’ll not lose much sleep over withdrawal pains from your computer and the programs needed to get music into your speakers. We can do better and we plan on doing exactly that.

But, whatever happens, we won’t let our customers down. If I am full of shit on this project, you can bet we’ll figure out how to make it right. It’s you, our customers, that we work for. Sometimes we have to push a little, risk a little, to make progress. And sometimes it works out well. I hope Octave will be that, but if not, we have plenty of experience with what works right now to fall back on.

Thanks for your patience and a special thanks to those visionaries among you that share our views of how bright the future can be with a bit of tweaking. We just gotta force ourselves to stretch our minds a bit.

Thanks.

Thanks Paul for this detailled clarification!

I think generally this is what most hoped for at the beginning of getting into streaming. No need of a computer (or in my case an application like Jriver on the NAS).

At first the following questions come into mind:

  • how will a NAS be attached as storage to a pure Bridge III setup without DLNA?
  • will Bridge III be configured for such connections via iPAD only?
  • how will Octave (the SW on the bridge, not the server) offer comparable fuctionality (more critical compared to Jriver than to Roon IMO) in case it is only managable by iPAD instead of PC?
  • will Bridge III offer comparable (to a PC or NAS) processor and RAM power for the application (futureproof)?
  • or do I totally miss the point and Bridge III will only work with the Octave server?
I'm sure there'd be several mandatory functions compared to one's previous application with a no-go in case they are not delivered, so for me. But I don't go into such details now. If the most important basics fit, this can be a great solution. I suspect one main reason for not offering support for alternative DLNA applications is, that PSA want's to get rid of support effort in this regard.

IMO the general idea is really what the customer wants, I just think Octave has to be damn perfect, so that the exclusion of alternatives doesn’t force too many towards competitors. Danger is, that without detailled further information about Octave this could happen for potential customers at this early stage of announcement. An “old” technology like Bridge II, still providing the alternatives will only be cold comfort I guess.

For existing customers, it’s more a question of wait and see…

Paul McGowan said

…Today, Sooloos is gone, but a new crop of dedicated computers emerged called servers. I haven’t found any servers yet that I like, but we as an industry are making progress.


Really?!? Sooloos is gone?

Meridian still advertise Sooloos gear and they released a software update (v2.535) in May this year. So, on the surface at least, I don’t think your statement is quite correct.

Also, I am intrigued about your comment “Octave hopes to free us from our computers”. I understand that with an end-to-end hardware and software solution you can control many variables that cause issues for so many users - especially those that are not tech savvy.
This is the approach Meridian took with Sooloos back in 2009. I bought into Sooloos in early 2012 and can confirm it was truly plug and play.

It was the best software for navigating my music collection (by a country mile) at the time and made me a Meridian customer. This is what you have to create - a hardware and software solution that is so good that people will switch to a ‘closed’ system just to experience it.

I think the downside to this approach is that you paint yourself into a corner. You might have the best thing since sliced bread for a number of years and make many new and happy customers. But then what happens? A new world beating DAC is released and those that value SQ above all else leave the fold. Or ROON v2 or some other music management & streaming solution is released that is better than Octave.
Again - customers leave.

Of course another approach is to ‘stick to your knitting’ which appears to me to be more hardware-orientated than software.

Why not (as mentioned by another poster) create the absolute technically advanced Bridge card possible for the DS Snr/Jnr with different software specific to and optimized for the protocols you want to support? i.e. Create the best DLNA solution for Bubble UPnp etc
Create the best sounding and most highly functional ROON endpoint out there.
Heck - doing that may bring new customers to PSAudio!

Just my 2c

Regards

Mark

Paul McGowan said

We haven’t any plans to support DLNA. Our goal is to eliminate the need for a computer in the mix altogether. This might be tough for diehard computer lovers. It’ll take time, but we are trying to straighten out what we see is as a lot of missteps in streaming audio. JRiver and iTunes are great examples.

Octave hopes to free us from our computers and give us the freedom to bond with our music and play it without worry of sonic degradation, software hassles, network nightmares, learning curves that cross eyeballs (JRiver, anyone?).

I think that when you see what we’ve managed with Octave, you’ll not lose much sleep over withdrawal pains from your computer and the programs needed to get music into your speakers. We can do better and we plan on doing exactly that.

Thanks for the great writeup Paul! A few points of clarification. No computer necessary, got it. But you do need to store the music on something, so that could be either the new server (Octave) or a USB hard drive, correct? Any other possibilities? I know there is another thread on the Octave Server (hardware), my recollection is it is an I2S device, so need no need for Bridge III with that, correct? You mentioned above that Bridge III will have multiple USB ports, presume that means multiple USB hard drives can plug in? And the music on the USB hard drives can be selected by an app on an iOS or Android device? Does some component of Octave need to be installed on the hard drive(s)? And, lastly, will there be a way to stream internet radio with Octave? I actually do that more than listen to the music I have on the computer hard drive! I would not like to lose that option. I will be keeping a close eye on this, any chance we can see some of the comments the beta testers have made?
jazznut said

Thanks Paul for this detailled clarification!

I think generally this is what most hoped for at the beginning of getting into streaming. No need of a computer (or in my case an application like Jriver on the NAS).

At first the following questions come into mind:

    • how will a NAS be attached as storage to a pure Bridge III setup without DLNA?
    • will Bridge III be configured for such connections via iPAD only?
    • how will Octave (the SW on the bridge, not the server) offer comparable fuctionality (more critical compared to Jriver than to Roon IMO) in case it is only managable by iPAD instead of PC?
    • will Bridge III offer comparable (to a PC or NAS) processor and RAM power for the application (futureproof)?
    • or do I totally miss the point and Bridge III will only work with the Octave server?
Great questions, thanks for asking.
  1. NAS are Network Attached Storage and while many have DLNA/UPnP servers built in, that is only a convenience. It is not required. Most NAS users simply attach their NAS to the network and then access the content or write to the NAS over the network. That's what they do, DLNA is a nice additional feature that is not needed at all. So, Octave will connect to any source of music anywhere on your network. That includes NAS, or computers. Just point Octave at where your music is stored and Octave does the rest. Simple. Or, plug a USB drive into the back panel and it will take care of the rest.
  2. Octave will be accessible and controllable through any mobile device. This includes Apple iPads and phones, or Android tablets and phones, via an app that is downloaded. It also has a built in web server so if you don't want an app, just open a browser (like on your computer) and there's a full gorgeous interface for you.
  3. Bridge III is unlike any other Bridge we have ever made. Both original Bridges were based on third party platforms (Bridge 1 on Ubicom, Bridge II on Convers) with limited resources. Bridge III is our own design and will be future proof. Plenty of RAM, CPU, Cache. Updates will happen automatically (if you allow) over the internet.
  4. You totally get it.