Is there a "burn out" after the burn in period?


#1

May be its a ridiculous or trivial question but many things in life are following the Gauss curve or a hump dromedary curve in term of efficiency. Many of us reported a long burn in period for the DS (or for many other devices more generally) but what happen when we reach what we think or feel to be the top?

How much time the nirvana?

Is there not several camel humps or a very slow deterioration of the sound quality? How much time for that?

May be when we reach the moment where an irresistible desire to change the material is here (all audiophiles knows these sensation) it is because the “burn out” work gone in this sense…


#2

In my explorations/experimentations I have noted the ebb and flow of improvements in SQ, followed by, in some ‘extreme’ cases, where the SQ as I refer to it ‘heads into the toilet’ only to rebound back and then come into even sharper focus.

The toilet experience usually happens at 400+hrs and is usually preceded by the SQ ‘tricking’ me into thinking its heading into the stratosphere. You can imagine the first time I noticed it and was thinking dark and e-ville thoughtspulling-hair_gif along with WTF!

Now I use this toilet dump as an indication that I’m close to reaching the peak SQ dancing-009_gif

And a corollary observation is that as the overall peak SQ continues to improve the amount of time also seems to be increasing to reach the new peak. My previous breaking times were at ≈250 hrs, then it went to ≈400hrs then to ≈500hrs. and now my last few mods were taking 600 & 700+ hrs to reach the new peak.

BUT as ‘compensation’ the depth of how bad the toilet dump (and the general level of ‘poor’ performance) is, is ameliorated along with the ever increasing SQ.

JJ


#3

Very interesting Johnjen. I’m reading your message today and I’m wondering if I’m not living the “toilet dump” experience you are talking about.

I was very enthusiast last friday about the SQ I reached after approximatively 350hours of burn in. On saturday I left home for the week end, switched off the DS (back power button) and came back to home yesterday evening. Once switched on and after 1 hour of run, what I observed that the magic was no longer there :-(. I was a bit disappointed but by experience I’m used too not care too much about such variation (may be me, the weather, and probably many parameters)…

Do you think the electronic (of any HiFi system) reach a kind of stability after 700hours that will stay as is until 5000, 10000 hours?

Pat


#4

DS needs to be put in standby by using the front logo button.

i think the DS needs 24hrs from a cold start (power off from back button).

this seems like a long time but I hear the difference if doing critical listening.


#5

Thanks Gordon, I’ll check this point. But it will be difficult to say if the improvement will be due to the phenomenon explained by Johnjen or the 24hours you are talking about, or both :-)


#6
gordon said DS needs to be put in standby by using the front logo button.

i think the DS needs 24hrs from a cold start (power off from back button).

this seems like a long time but I hear the difference if doing critical listening.

Gordon, when you burned yours in (have you burned in more than one?). Do you do a straight - random music for days on end, or, on for several hours, off for several hours? And if you did do on/off, was it full off (back switch) or standby-off?

I learned to do several hours on, several hours off. But that was mostly for amps with big caps. Just out of curiosity I started that with the DirectStream (on/full off), but got tired of that so now I’m just full on 24/7 (I’m just starting my second week owning the DS).

As for the highs and lows of sound quality - I’ve seen, felt, heard that in tube amps, but not really in digital equipment. I feel that once a digital piece reaches it’s “steady state”, it’s pretty consistent. I think it’s our ears, our moods, our perception that really is the rollercoaster. Hell, even in my guitar playing days, I swear the barometric pressure and humidity messed with my tone.


#7

I had not heard of this until you described it earlier.

Your own idea?


#8

And I have two side questions:

When swapping cables and gear, I usually turn the DS off using the back power toggle.

  1. If I use the Standby button on front, am I still protected from any potential pops or surges when changing gear?

  2. If I turn off using the Power toggle and turn it on a minute or two later, does the “1 hour warmup” still apply, or is there leftover mojo (i.e., the DS is still “warm”) that won’t skew any tests that I’m doing?


#9
Lonely Raven said Hell, even in my guitar playing days, I swear the barometric pressure and humidity messed with my tone.
Is it not related to the wood of your instrument which works under the effect of the water present in the atmosphere?

#10
Rob H. said And I have two side questions:

When swapping cables and gear, I usually turn the DS off using the back power toggle.

  1. If I use the Standby button on front, am I still protected from any potential pops or surges when changing gear?

  2. If I turn off using the Power toggle and turn it on a minute or two later, does the “1 hour warmup” still apply, or is there leftover mojo (i.e., the DS is still “warm”) that won’t skew any tests that I’m doing?


Using the standby button on the front panel does indeed protect you completely from anything downstream. It turns the outputs completely off. so yes, safe.

I find that even turning it off from the power switch and transporting it somewhere the unit retains its sound quality for the most part - as long as the actual burn in time is long - I never unplug or un-power it unless I am traveling with the device.


#11

Right after 17hours of a non stop run, my DS, which was powered down during 36hours, came back to its outstanding level.

Happy again :-) It’s strange, because I would explain with many difficulties what’s the difference between before and after. In both cases, the sound is correct except that when it’s OK, the music seems more subtle and makes me happy :-)
Surely an expert would express these things better than me…


#12

As I recall, the front panel switch only turns off the outputs - everything else remains active and powered up.

I do not hear any difference between leaving the unit fully lit up, and turning it on using the front panel button from standby. But this alone is hardly definitive, others may hear something. :)


#13
Elk said As I recall, the front panel switch only turns off the outputs - everything else remains active and powered up.

I do not hear any difference between leaving the unit fully lit up, and turning it on using the front panel button from standby. But this alone is hardly definitive, others may hear something. :)


Using the logo button both sends all digital zeros to the upsampler and engages the hardware mute. The nature of DSD is that the representation of zero still involves bashing from one rail to the other continuously so things are still fairly active in there. “Relaxing” to either all positive or all negative “pulses” would actually be worse since it would put a large DC current thru the transformer. So things will still be breaking in when on standby, tho I wouldn’t hazard a guess whether they are breaking in faster because the output is shorted or slower because the output levels are lower…

#14

RAVEN

ACTUALLY, i THINK i TRIED TO kill THE DS.

The first 48 hours were full playing [amp on and off] and then the firmware fleet began arriving. Every install involved a cold boot, install and reinitialize and this went on for hours n days n weeks. So really, other than playing at night with amp off, my poor DS went through a vigorous period of on and offs. Although it did not cool down at all, I still gave each new version 1/2 hour or so of playing before passing judgement. Sometimes it was hard to tell about tonal issues because the DS was in fact, still burning in during the testing. One thing that dd NOT change was the authenticity of the instruments and the toe tapping. This is what I always listened for first and then the tonal qualities. Without the former the tone had much less meaning so the version got nixed.

Re- guitar days.

I played drums in high school.[ terrible drummer] and when a band I wanted to join needed a lead guitar [they had a drummer] I picked up an old Les Paul and earned some chords and the lead riffs for about 30 songs. We went on a summer contract tour of the province of Quebec and played in dance halls, cabarets and strip joints. It was quite the summer music-078_gifdrinking-39_giffacepalm-smiley-emoticon_gifdevil_gifgiggle_gif but sadly the end of my career as a musician. Every time I listen to Buddy Guy I get the urge to go out and by a guitar. I played by ear and never learned to read music. I can pick out an “A” though with reasonable consistency.

EDIT:

regarding humidity, I find it reasonable to consider that sound waves can be affected by humidity and atmospheric levels. Even some equipment is affected and not recommended over a certain altitude. How our human listening networks are affected is anyone’s guess. Music does sound different after the consumption of certain liquids though.


#15

I didn’t think if of this, but of course - digital black. (Don’t hate me, but I keep forgetting the DS is DSD.)

Thanks, Ted. Cool stuff.


#16
Elk said I had not heard of this until you described it earlier.

Your own idea?


Are you asking about the On/Off thing?

I’ve been told this is a good way to form caps by several amps builders, both two channel audio and guitar amps.

I doubt the caps in the DS really need forming like a guitar amp or big tube amp, but what do I know, I’m just a dumb IT guy. :slight_smile:


#17
Lonely Raven said
Elk said I had not heard of this until you described it earlier.

Your own idea?

Are you asking about the On/Off thing?

I’ve been told this is a good way to form caps by several amps builders, both two channel audio and guitar amps.

I doubt the caps in the DS really need forming like a guitar amp or big tube amp, but what do I know, I’m just a dumb IT guy. :slight_smile:


The amount of current in the DS is much smaller, I doubt that powering off and then back on stresses on anything much. I’ve had the analog card keep sounding pretty good with the 12V rail down to about 5 or 6 volts :)

I’ve got no idea if there’s a nonmonotonic break in.


#18

An interesting concept. I have not come across this before, even for big amps with large capacitors.


#19
Elk said An interesting concept. I have not come across this before, even for big amps with large capacitors.
I've heard lots of speculation and also stories from salesmen that I didn't have a lot of reason to trust about rollercoaster burnin/breakin. I personally haven't heard more changes during breakin than can be explained by the time of day fluctuations of the AC or my mood and my gut says that non-monotonic breakin is much less likely than monotonic breakin. But considering anecdotal evidence is often the first step in understanding something new.

#20
Ted Smith said
Elk said As I recall, the front panel switch only turns off the outputs - everything else remains active and powered up.

I do not hear any difference between leaving the unit fully lit up, and turning it on using the front panel button from standby. But this alone is hardly definitive, others may hear something. :)

Using the logo button both sends all digital zeros to the upsampler and engages the hardware mute. The nature of DSD is that the representation of zero still involves bashing from one rail to the other continuously so things are still fairly active in there. “Relaxing” to either all positive or all negative “pulses” would actually be worse since it would put a large DC current thru the transformer. So things will still be breaking in when on standby, tho I wouldn’t hazard a guess whether they are breaking in faster because the output is shorted or slower because the output levels are lower…

I started my strict regimen of “Standby Burning” today. LOL