Thank you @badbeef.
Indeed, it escaped me that you had tried it yourself.
That’s not the answer I was hoping for 
…
I feel your pain. I would also say that it is likely that How Much benefit can be derived from this sort of device is not only dependent on the money invested/quality of the components (not always directly related) but also on the overall quality of the system.
In other words, the more resolving the system, the more you’re likely to get a benefit from this. This also tends to correspond to the investment being a more “reasonable” proportion of the cost of that system. For example, it doesn’t make a whole lot of economic sense to invest $2k in this chain if you’re putting it in a $4k system. There are likely several other areas where you could put that money which would result in a larger increase in the overall quality of sound of the system. Or would improve every source - not just this particular digital one - such as room acoustical treatments or power regeneration.
The thing that’s a bit insidious about it is that you tend to start out with the $500 thing and the cables you may already have available. Then, incremental improvements are made by upping the quality of each of the parts - usually audible at every stage. Pretty soon you can find yourself at $2k. Would you have spent $2k for it if it were that much to begin with? And is it worth $2k in the context of your system? Maybe not. But doing it a bit at a time, over time, seemed less painful than all at once.
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Lumin U1 connected to DS via Chord Sarum T aes is my current set up.
I tried the following:
Nucleus +, AQ coffee, Matrix, hdmi from DMP, DS ——> inferior
Lumin U1, AQ coffee, Matrix, hdmi from DMP, DS ——> a bit better but still inferior
Lumin U1, AQ coffee, Matrix, Chord aes —-> comparable
Lumin U1, AQ coffee, Matrix, hdmi WW platinum —-> same as above, comparable
Matrix is powered by an iFi power supply, admittedly much cheaper than an Sbooster or Farad.
So maybe with a more expensive usb cable and power supply, usb could be better than direct aes.
But I have my doubts.
@aangen came to the same conclusion with his new Griphon gear: the Matrix does not make a difference.
My hypothesis is that the impact of the Matrix diminishes as the quality of the source increases.
Amplification: Plinius Tautoro and 2 Plinius SA 103 bridged monoblocs.
Speakers: B&W 800
The Coffee is USB?
Tough to conclude much without replacing that, from my experience.
AQ coffee USB is just below AQ diamond in the AQ hierarchy.
Used as a reference by John Atkinson.
It’s no slouch.
Yes - familiar with it, as mentioned. But your findings are interesting. Tough to draw general conclusions from one case though.
Al - did you come to that conclusion?
Guess I’m just trying to understand if the inference is that it doesn’t matter with certain pieces of gear, or if it only applies to Rully Good Stuff, because at that level they’ve sorted it out already.
Or that they have designed the unit optimized for AES, for example. A number of high-end makers seem to be working their way away from USB. It is certainly fraught, as, thoroughout its existence, it has always been possible to improve on it. But it was ubiquitous and practical. And cheap.
I’m frankly pissed, as two years ago, a big factor in moving away from a custom Mini-based rig to an Auralic server was that I’d accumulated a very similar, albeit very primitive Chain of Crap just to get the USB from the digital source to sound better. And…better…and better.
Now - here I am again with a much more costly Matrix Chain to accomplish much the same thing. If makers are sorting this out internally in their devices for similar money - that makes the more costly device worth it.
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I asked Peter Lie, of Lumin, and he didn’t have a recommendation, between usb (with matrix) and aes.
He said « it depends on the dac, you have to a/b it in your system ».
To be honest, all the possibilities I tried above were really close.
In my system, there must be better upgrade paths, like perhaps a better cable to the P20, or a switch from the DMP to the PST 
?
I guess that was what made me wonder about the AQ. Cable changes in the Matrix chain have been significant for me in my system, and as that one was common to all… 
Frankly the biggest change in my streaming setup (probably more than the now multi-kilodollar Matrix Chain I have going) was installing a PSU mod board in the streamer. But it makes it even easier to hear the changes in the Matrix Chain…
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Yes the Coffee is low Fi compared to Al’s cables 
I did not say the Matrix with great cables did not make a difference. I said that listening without the Matrix sounds fine on first listen. I spent four hours listening without the Matrix and I was very pleased with the sound.
To be certain I need to listen again with the Matrix back in line. I do believe I am going to be able to do without and that is my hope.
When I tested the Aries G1 I found the Matrix added little to it over AES or Coax.
Better devices often include as good or better USB processing than what the Matrix provides. In the case of a $25k DAC one would hope external processing is not required.
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Yes that is what @tedsmith seems to say about the upcoming TSS, if I understood him correctly.
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That hasn’t been my experience, but I need to recalibrate and retry, with my current Pile Of Al-Inspired Kabelz - when I get in that frame of mind. That stuff is always relative to what you’re hooking up, and what you’re hooking it up with. But everything is sounding Fab now, so… 
Re: the TSS and 1%'er (3%'er?) Gear of its Ilk - yes, one would hope an external chain of third party stuff would not be needed. Though come to think on it, this was a reaction folks had on the Auralic board about this 3rd Party mod board - “How could this Need this? Or how could it Possibly make it better?!? Why didn’t Auralic make it Perfect (at $X) to begin with?” In so many words.
And so, my response was - "Hey - Auralic makes several levels of servers, and then there’s the Leo GX Clock (external, $6k) that makes a big difference in any of those. Same with external clock boxes from dCS, etc. in their already-world-class components. And that’s just Clocking. The difference between ANY product, analog or digital - ARE just these sorts of things. Quality of power supplies, clocking, electrical and physical isolation of the sections (up to and including putting everything in separate boxes), A to D, D to A, quality of the A in the D…you get the idea.
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OK - just added something to the list for when I Compare: Over in the Ted Thread, he says essentially to unplug everything else if you really want to hear the performance of a given pipe. Unless you want the added noise of all the other stuff you have connected. 
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Thank you @badbeef and @aangen for sharing your experience.
It certainly helps me, and should be helpful to the OP.
It would be interesting to hear from other forum members who have SOTA streamers.
Have any of you compared a direct connection to the DS with a Matrix USB chain?
Yes and to be fair, the Chord Sarum T aes is expensive. I compared it to the ww platinum 8 aes, and it was much better, as it should, at something like twice the price.
Hi Philippe,
- Did you test I2S direct from Matrix to DS DAC?
- In the case of Neucleus+ did you have storage onboard? If yes was it SSD?
- What power supply is feeding your Nucleus?
Thanks
- Yes, with Bridge 2, but the Lumin sounds much better.
- No, usb attached harddrive
- Sbooster (also on the harddrive and router)
Thank you Philippe. Just to confirm my understanding, you had Bridge II installed, and tried USB via Matrix to I2S in the DS DAC first with Nucleus+ then with Lumin which sounds better than the Nucleus+. Right?
If the HDD is near your Nucleus+ it would certainly add noise. I have no experience with Sbooster, but I hope it provides independent internal DC circuits for the HDD & Nucleus+. HDPLEX 300W has 4 separate DC circuits.
Correct, and yes, I am using three Sboosters, one for the Nucleus +, one for the HDD, and one for the ASUS router.
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I just made an important discovery about chains noise and sound quality. I set up my bedroom rig again finally after remodel. I had I sold and old entertainment center and now had not enough room after adding new bedroom set for a bunch of huge monos MC2500 and MC preamp and a separate DAC. Plus my huge McIntosh XRT20 line arrays.
I had played my XR290s off the Matrix chain including LPS, RAL, Iconoclast UPOCC, UltraRendu, and Inakustik Referenz cables into an Analog XLR feed in my old Lyngdorf Integrated TDAI 2200 with Icono SPTPC speaker cables and liked sound when MC1000 Monoblocks were being refurbished. Not the same level but damn good. So in the bedroom I figure to try one box streaming with my Roon as an Apple TV endpoint taking a toslink off TV so it will do video sound as well as streaming.
That will eliminate a whole chain of cables and use optical straight in the Lyngdorf but give me only one digital to Analog conversion and allow use of DSP RoomPerfect of digital signal prior to conversion of analog. So now everything is done in digital domain. The Lyngdorf’s uses a Class D power amp based power supply which also addressed some bad frequency issues in class D. It uses old TI equibit chips which Lyngdorf still uses and amp is close to latest Purifi class D phenomenon according to Bruno Putzey himself said while talking about the Purifi and older Lyngdorf amp topology on a you tube steam
The sound of this simple system ended up being fabulous.the only audiophile digital cables touching the signal is an Inakustik Referenz ethernet between my Roon transporter, a decent WireWorld HDMI into the TV, and a Toslink cable from an assorted pile i collected Speaker cables just some very short 10 gauge OFCs with no extra terminations just straight to the speaker and amp posts. For grins I’ll have to try a WW platinum HDMI.
Do I still like my decked out rig with the Matrix the best? Yes but surprisingly the simple Lyngdorf system with the big McIntosh XRT20 speakers is ending up being very engaging, huge soundstage, detail, great dynamics and resolution with a really really quiet and black background. Makes me want to try a new Lyngdorf integrated once they roll in latest Purifi Class D amp modules. Right now it is totally uncolored, engaging, exceptional imaging and plays all genres exceptionally well.
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