It was funny!
It was hilarious! When I was scrolling through the comments, I immediately stopped there because most posts are just that - posts with no graphics. My first thought was “What the H puts out that kind of signal?” A split second later, I just started laughing.
To offend and make a laugh at the same time, now that’s skillful.
Enter, Don Rickles. Made a fortune from it.
Seeing how you just joined when you sent the message - kind of hard to believe you’re not just another ASR troll that takes pride in disrupting audio forums all over the internet. Been going on for years with you guys. Emire has had the hots for PSA lately - 3 hit pieces in the last couple of weeks - impressive. Dumb, maybe - I’ve been called worse. Just call it like I see it. The recent ASR attacks have been pretty gross, any decent person would have to admit that - correct? I guess I’m just lumping you in with the company you keep. The tin eared trolls from ASR. Maybe unfair - kind of like Emire’s hit pieces I guess.
Well you’d be happy to know I joined ASR to defend harsh critics to a Woo Audio tube amp which was being demolished for having distortion. I found that a non sense as tube distortion is the reason why tubes are still used in audio.
The fact that someone has joined a forum does not mean they agree on all that is posted there, which would in fact make any forum really boring.
With that said, the measurements of some PS Audio gear look pretty grime (with no tubes involved)so I joined this forum to ask for a comment from PS Audio. What’s so troll about this, I’m not too sure.
If that’s true I do apologize – Whenever I see the letters A S and R without spaces I get crazy.
abeiklou – you have yet to answer my question about what car you drive. o2so, psydave, Jedi, Rudolph Appel, et al – what cars do you guys drive? I would put forth to all of you that you did NOT buy your car strictly by spec. I would put forth to you that none of you just looked at the sheets, then bought the car without a test drive. You can name your car, and I will tell you the KNOWN issues/problems with your car that the manufacturer does NOT say in their literature or on the sales floor.
Even after looking at the advertising, sales pitches, etc., you still took the car for a test drive. But why? You can look at suspension geometry, weight distribution, spring rate, tire specs, etc., and know how it handles. You can see the curvature and contours of the seats and recognize whether it conforms to your body lines. You can look at horse power, torque, weight, etc., and calculate acceleration and towing capacity (if needed).
You took the car for a test drive, to see if you like the car – REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE SPECIFICATIONS ARE. Along with that, unless you’re a tight*** like I am, you likely paid SIGNIFICANTLY more on your car than your dac.
ALL cars have problems – known problems – regardless of brand, price, and what the manufacturer says (or more likely DOESN’T say). ALL cars will have some aspect that does not meet published specifications. Despite that, why do people, including you, buy this car or that car? BECAUSE YOU LIKE IT.
If someone likes something (like your car), and decides to buy it, regardless of what it says on paper, or what the manufacturer doesn’t tell you about it, it is THEIR prerogative. You don’t have to buy it, and you don’t have to ridicule/chastise them for buying it. Buy what floats your boat (or moves your car), and I, and everyone else, will buy what floats theirs.
So, tell me what car do you drive – and why you bought it.
Well, I’ve been a PSA forum member for years. My NuWave DAC has served me well for about 7 years. I’m also a member of the ASR forum and I appreciate the reviews and information posted there. Measurement differences in DACs may or may not be audible. It would take stringent double blind testing to get at that. Paul seems to suggest that DACs that have really low distortion or that measure very well are likely to sound sterile and “like dog poo”. I have a hard time accepting that. Chord DACs measure fairly well, according to ASR, and mine (a Mojo) doesn’t sound sterile to me. I think it’s certainly possible to produce a DAC that measures well and sounds great. Personally, for my audio dollars, I want a DAC that produces a measurably clean signal. I can then choose to “color” that, or not, through choices in amps, speakers, and room EQ/DSP.
Summary #2:
The Mona Lisa would look better in 3D and in 8K Ultra Super Mega High Definition.
My 256 Megapixel Camera is the most powerful ever created, therefore my pictures will be flawless.
Everything in the State of Cancer causes california.
I hear with my eyes and see with my ears.
The Null Tester Said So.
My reply is better than yours.
The End. Part Deux
LOL, I actually am an amateur track driver and I do drive a Porsche 911! You are correct, not ALL car characteristics could be determined from specs, although HP and 0-60 is quite straight forward, AND a time around the Ring is a very good indication of overall performance.
However, it’s a ridiculous comparison to an audio equipment that it’s only job is to reproduce music as purely as possible and while not ALL aspects of audio can be measured, noise is a clear item that can be measured, essentially if I pass XYZ123 to the DAC, do I get XYZ123 at the other end, OR, do I get XY1Z45p123… that’s how such measurements could be beneficial. Also, listening tests are purely subjective, so while on might like a sound of Tube amps, another likes solid state and then various degrees in between. Noise measurement is standard practice and Ted explained it well for DS that the noise is below what we could hear and to lower it either it had to cost more, or had to sacrifice something else. I personally don’t accept the SGCD measurements as acceptable and that for me is an input to only consider DS or DS Jr, as options for my purchase including the firmware upgrade potential which is a huge benefit. That’s my opinion.
I bought my car for the boot size, so I could fit prams and all the kids s*it. Luckily this is something I could measure myself at the dealer, but I would have been very disappointed if I could not have measured it and realised the specs (i.e. stated boot capacity) were incorrect when trying to load a pram, under the rain and with screaming kids in the car.
It’s not a ridiculous comparison. Why do you drive a 911? Why not a Toyota Camry? A Camry will get you from point A to point B more efficiently than a 911 with it’s flat 6. Why buy a car with a flat six, considering flat sixes are prone to lubrication issues (though Porsche has it a bit better sorted than Subaru), change over valve problems, cylinder scoring, etc.?
You drive a 911 because it gives you pleasure. A car, after all, is a machine that is intended to get people, and possibly some cargo, from point A to point B. If that’s all there is, there would only be one car – and it wouldn’t be a Porsche. If a dac is only meant to be a machine that translates 1’s and 0’s to an analog signal, there would only be one dac.
A dac, like any other piece of HOME audio equipment, is meant to give pleasure, not just translate digits – just like your 911 is meant to be more than a method to get from point A to point B.
I’m not an all sound guy. I started this hobby being an avid Stereo Review guy. I spread the gospel of Julian Hirsch. I lusted after Bose, JBL, the old Teacs, etc. Then, one day I wondered into a “high end” dealer and heard the likes of Mark Levinson, Audio Research, Magnepan, Dahlquist, and yes, the infamous Fulton cables (showing my age).
Over the years, I have come to realize something for myself – if I care TOO MUCH about the numbers, I’ll miss the sound.
Oh my god I suppose I owe you an answer or explanation or something! I am SO SO SORRY! I guess you must be a very important person.
Please refer to my posts and tell me exactly where I said specs are all that matter or that since the specs aren’t great neither is the product. Take your time.
BTW, regardless of how much I like my car, if the HP is less than stated by the manufacturer I’d be p***ed. It’s called false advertising.
What the Hell did I do here ? This why I titled my post “My Apologies…”. It was a Saturday Night. I had a few 14yr. Old Glenfiddich’s with Return To Forever playing (not blasting) through my SGCD/M700’s/Series 1 901’s. I was in a slightly inebriated state (only 2 finger neat shots x 2 - that’s all - I swear). I was just curious about some equipment reviews online. You see, when I listen to music, I like the distraction that a Audio Magazine/Laptop/Tablet gives me. I’ve been like this since I was a kid. Yes, I do pay attention to how my system sounds when I perceive that there’s a problem or when I just wanna sit back, turn off the lights and mellow out (that’s how I make the 3x 901’s in front of me and the two beside me Sofa (or Chesterfield “disappear”).
I mean, Paul’s responded 4 times ! I think I’m the only PS Audio Customer running 901’s off of a Stellar Stack. And they sound F’ in Awesome !! Measurements Schmeasurements !
Well…not really…I enjoyed when I worked in an Electronics Lab or Manufacturing Test Area (and hope to do so again). Spectrum Analyzers, Vector Network Analyzer, Oscilliscope’s, DMM’s for measuriing Current & Voltage. Data over Temperature Testing (painful when you have to take that data by hand - Labview is awesome). Sometimes I could see trends in manufacturing issues and try to nip them in the bud when possible. I would always look for second opinion and third if necessary.
Remember Lab Reports ? I used to love/hate doing them.
Toronto Maple Laugh’s in 5 for 2020 Stanley Cup…who’s with me ?
Even more of a ridiculous comparison, I thought you were going to compare Porsche 911 to Corvette and claim Corvette is faster in 0-60 so why not picking it? Probably could have made a better argument than Camry!
Enjoyment matters, build quality matters (actually today was loving me Classe’ amp build and material), but SOUND matters most and noise measurement is part of it. Either it makes an audible or noticeable difference or it doesn’t. In a perfect world I’d like a DAC that both measures well (not best, but acceptable) AND sounds great and to me DS meets that requirement, but if these measurements are accurate SGCD doesn’t.
By the way, the new ASR review of the PS Audio S300 power amp is quite good and the amp made it to the recommended by ASR list.
I think this proves that there is (at least an attempt of) objectivity in what ASR does. You are then more than welcome to like something that measures poorly, but at least you get some objective performance indicators. Otherwise most reviews would just be about what the reviewer likes, which really is of little interest to me as I may have different preferences.
You mean you prefer measurements? They tell you much less about the sound, than a human, with ears!
Just off a whim I contacted a audiophile friend that lives in the area that I just moved to. He is a headphone fanatic in fact he is the one that told me to get the Topping nx4DSD portable that i like so far. I called him and told him about the measurements taken and the posts here and he had an idea.
He is kind of a equipment collector and he has been telling me that some of these newer Chinese made dacs are pretty good for the low cost they are and he just happened to have one of the ones on the list of dacs on ASR and offered to come over since he likes my GCD and would like to see what all this is about as well. He came over with an SMSL SU-8 which he happened to have in his system right now and it is a no brainer hookup to my system with its XLR balanced outputs. We both sat and listened to several tracks on both dacs(using his DB meter to make sure the levels were the same for listening) Using music from different genres. Some piano track, blues, jazz ETC. At the end of it all we both had the same conclusion.
At 250 the SMSL is a really good dac for detail if that is all you are looking for, and we both agreed that it was real good for the . When the GCD was in the system it had all the detail or at least 99% of the detail but it was delivered in a different way, and I must say i was grateful because I was wondering myself after the measurements. The GCD had the detail there but it had a toe tapping musicality and fluidity that the SMSL. It was like going from a person just giving a speech to giving a speech and keeping you interested. The music flowed and had a soul to it. Piano had the harmonic overtones that sound more true to life, Blues guitar solos had more feeling and more presence, Both dacs had the fundamentals there but the GCD had more of what keeps you interested and listening for longer.
My friend and I agreed that for detail fanatics only the SMSL would be great but for actual music lovers the GCD has it. And if that is a poor measuring dac with higher distortion and such then that is what it is. I remember back in the 80’s when people were obsessed with super low harmonic distortion and high damping factor only to find out later on that there were amps out there with higher distortions and lower measurements that were musically superior. I think the is the 80’s of DACs right now.
I don’t like writing in forums but let me get this straight. A guy that graduate electrical engineering some 40 years ago, never worked as such, being a programmer for some time about 30 years ago, worked for a company that created Windoze, then being a manager in the same establishment (not a good thing), and even receiving awards for creating who knows what piece of s…t software Microsoft produces on daily basis, is now lecturing people about performance, design and functionality of HI-FI audio equipment? The same guy, in his 60-s now, is talking about how elderly people, referring to Ted Smith, may have problems hearing high frequency, hence the bad performance of his DAC. Really? The guy most likely hasn’t soldered a wire in the last 40 years or so, being a programmer and a manager and an “award winner”, and we are wasting so much time and energy about him? Why? The people who created Windoze know to measure things anyhow they see fit for their purpose. Didn’t they ”objectively” tell us how that the next version of windoze would be better and faster than the previous - 95, xp, vista (OMG), 7, 8 (a disaster) and now 10 (a disgrace)? And we are to listen to this guy who proudly brags about it, even put it in his resume? Are we to take his advice seriously on really anything? I don’t think so. I am not.
I have had PSA equipment for a long time – nuwave (decommissioned but still in possession), DSJ, BHK power amp, power plants, BHK preamp, you name it, and I am not changing it. Being younger than this dude, I can hear higher frequency and I have listened to numerous amps, dacs etc. I have never found better sounding stuff. I don’t care about measurements, especially coming from a former Microsoft manager. I listen, I enjoy, therefore, I exist.